NYT article: ‘Willing to Do Everything,’ Mothers Defend Sons Accused of Sexual Assault

Parent Cafe
241

Also, I have to support doschicos. Yes, a public health campaign could be part of the solution. But there is a difference between sexual assault and drug addiction, in terms of what the full range of responses should be.

As doschicos mentioned, drug addiction hurts the user. If the user robs someone else in support of his habit, he has committed a crime. That is not a public health issue. If the user is funding the habit by prostitution, the user is most likely being victimized by a pimp. That is a crime. It is not a public health issue. The addiction itself is a public health issue.

In the case of sexual assault, there is a victim, who is not the perpetrator. This needs to be recognized. While I am not running Alecto, Inc., and I am not a rabid advocate of punishment, I do think it is appropriate when one person is clearly the victim of the other. (Granted, if both are drunk and incapable of consent, the situation is more complex.). This is not solely a public health matter. If there are no adverse consequences, the behavior is unlikely to stop, no matter how many ads/posters/talks/orientation sessions you throw at it.

Aside from that, I think we really need a culture change, so that women’s autonomy is respected. This is not a public health issue, either; it is a cultural issue. We need to have the general view in the culture that rape is cowardly, and not macho. Young men’s perceptions are often set well before college. I think that middle-school and high-school age males need to have adult men showing them what it means to be a man, and how to become one. Again, not a public health issue.

My spouse used to tell me that if a young man treated women poorly, then women would not have anything to do with the entire group of friends of that young man. So, he said, the group of friends had an incentive to see that they all treated women with respect. This seems to have broken down in a lot of areas–too bad.

I have nothing against trying the public health route as part of a multi-level campaign to reduce the incidence of rape.

242

Hanna remarked that we can’t “punish our way out of the problem.” Well, we can’t because in many cases, the situation will boil down to he said/she said, and there won’t be enough evidence to sustain anything. A lot of these cases are never reported to anyone (other than close friends and sometimes family). The likelihood of getting away with rape, which is quite high, is one of the things that enables it. A public health campaign will do nothing against that.

The situation where both people are drunk could perhaps be addressed by a public health campaign. Fine with me.

243

I don’t know, Rivet2000. I know of a few cases of people violating restraining orders. There was one that came up on CC where the assailant had to stay out of the dorm where his victim lived, but he got friends to use their access cards to get him in. I wouldn’t exactly see it as protection. I know one person who has a restraining order against an assailant, and still basically lives in fear.

Another element of this: I would assume that violating a restraining order is a less serious offense than rape. Perhaps one of the lawyers could clarify on this. But assuming that it is so, why would someone who has the level of criminality to rape someone be bothered very much about violating a restraining order?

Operationally, there are also problems: Are you going to restrict the choice of classes by the assailant, so that he cannot take a course in which the victim is enrolled?

244

I disagree with Hanna.

Yes, it can’t all be about punishment. But some of it is. The reason why having a death penalty for rape doesn’t work is that the odds of getting caught are very, very slim; the odds of being able to plea bargain down to something like simple assault are high; and the conviction rate is so low that no “rational” person committing rape, especially acquaintance rape with no witnesses, is worried that he’s going to be executed. You’re got MUCH better odds of winning the Power Ball. So, looking only at the ultimate penalty isn’t a way to determine what “works.” You have to look at the likelihood that the ultimate penalty will be imposed. You also have to look at the likelihood that ANY penalty will be imposed.

The rape rate in the US is 10x that in Singapore. Is that due to cultural differences between Singaporans and Americans? Or is it due to the fact that it’s MUCH more likely that you are going to get caught and if you are, you’re much more likely to be punished? I vote for the latter.

There are many reasons I would not want to live in Singapore, but I know a few Americans who do and some more who have visited. And while almost all of them think what can happen to you if you engage in gay sex or chew gum is horrific, many say it’s really wonderful to walk around and have very little fear that anyone will commit a crime against you. Yep, the punishment for chewing gum is beyond draconian----but as a result, I doubt anyone who isn’t either drunk/high or mentally ill would ever dream of chewing gum.(There’s an exception for chewing gum that’s a nicotine substitute.)

As for rape, Singapore doesn’t have the death penalty–the max is 20 years. However, the minimum is 8 years. A judge cannot give less than that. And…you get caned. Caning hurts…a lot. That’s why slave owners did it. It’s why the masters of ships did it. And no, I am not advocating caning. I am saying that there are plenty of folks–and I suspect I’m one of them–who would rather spend a year in prison that be whipped 20 times.

Drug addicts have a disease. Alcoholics have a disease. I think it’s probable that pedophiles have a disease. Rapists? I don’t think they do. Just my opinion.

245

I agree with Hanna that it will take a culture change. However, I’m much older and have been watching the situation longer, even if not as an expert insider. The culture did change with Title IX, imho. Will Title IX solve the the problem of campus rape? Absolutely not. Overall, though, I see it as having been a positive. Rape and assault victims now have means of redress they didn’t before. Some individuals have been educated about consent who may otherwise have been perpetrators. Bystander education is a relatively new concept.

If we can change culture, that will be the best solution. However, a very wise 92 year old friend keeps telling me the world will never be perfect. Title IX isn’t perfect. Clearly it can be improved. Overall, it seems to me to have been a benefit to campus culture. We are better off than 10 years ago. imo, and maybe due at least in part to Title IX.

I think Title IX enabled women to speak up in a way they didn’t before. We are just beginning to see the repercussions of that… and it is a huge cultural shift … imho. I am really interested what happens next.

246

Re: Brock Turner case

California’s Penal Code actually has two different crimes that most people would informally call “rape”. The crime described in PC 261 is called “rape”, while the crime described in PC 289 is described as “sexual penetration”. These crimes have the same penalties.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&division=&title=9.&part=1.&chapter=1.&article=
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=289.

However, technical differences between the laws may make it harder to convict under PC 261 than PC 289 in some circumstances.

Brock Turner was convicted of counts under subsections of PC 289; the counts under subsections of PC 261 were dropped. The third count was assault with intent to commit one of the listed felonies (rape and “any violation of Section … 289” are included in the list).

247

How did we get back to rapes that are prosecuted in a court of law, it invariably happens…just makes me more convinced that is what should happen and that is where the focus should be for accusations that meet the definitions of a prosecutable case.

248

I specifically acknowledged that the claim could be made by a third party in my post #154 when responding to a poster’s contention that where a woman has reported she was too drunk to consent the rules were not being enforced equally or there would be a lot of women guilty of rape. I replied with:

With regard to the posts discussing a public health approach to campus sexual assault, as far as I know colleges are already attempting to incorporate recommendations made by the CDC into their programs. Some of the cornerstones of the recommendations are education and developing bystander intervention skills. But let’s be clear the recommendations also include building a substantial infrastructure to address campus sexual assault which specifically mention Title IX coordinators and campus conduct boards/panels. The goal is to lessen the “load” on the system over time by committing resources “upstream” to prevention. I have no problem with that objective. The CDC’s public health model does not advocate a dismantling of that infrastructure as I read it. To the contrary it recommends strengthening it.

@momofthreeboys I was particularly surprised to see your unqualified endorsement of the public health model – it is a very victim centered approach. For instance, the recommendations endorsed jointly by the CDC and the NCIPC advocate prevention programming and response that is “survivor-centered and trauma-informed.” They specifically mention that prevention efforts should strive to support the alleged victim, avoid victim-blaming and not re-traumatize a survivor. That means staff training with those goals in mind. Is that something you are on abroad with?

Further one of elements included in the CDC/NCIPC’s example of a comprehensive campus-based prevention strategy is coach implemented intervention for male athletes. The program should address “hyper-masculne” peer norms that might facilitate sexual violence. Are you board with that as well?

249

I’m not against victim center approaches, I’ve always said trust but verify. I’m also not against victim center approaches because I think it opens mental health care avenues for women that would benefit. I’m against presumption of guilt. I’m against heavy handed punishment when perhaps mediation or education or counseling makes more sense. I’m also about distinguishing between criminal behavior and boorishness, between self autonomy and blaming someone else. I’m for distinguishing rape and assault from relationship issues that may not be criminal which I think diminishes victims of rape and assault. Im’ against 3rd party reporting unless it’s to the cops as a mandatory reporter. And I’m all about treating men and women equally when it comes to alcohol and consent.

250

It bears saying, that I simply don’t see how any system, can work with out verification. Women in that respect have to buck up and answer the hard questions. That is the believe but verify. That doesn’t mean that it’s OK to ask someone what they were wearing, or how many sex partners they have had in their life, but asking how much they drank, asking them to take it step by step through whatever happened moments before, during and after an attack, what the relationship was with the accused, was it the first time the accused has done something like the accusation, isn’t ever going to go away. It happens to victims in car crashes, it happens to victims who were robbed, it happens in any crisis situation or any conflict and it happens with any accusation in the workplace or wherever. That doesn’t mean you aren’t “victim centered” and you are out to find fault in the story, it can mean exactly the opposite that you are looking for the facts and the pieces that allow someone to go forth and adjudicate. If young women think the ideal system is to go forth and accuse someone and then drop out of the aftermath, that simply doesn’t happen and won’t happen in a country that is founded on innocent until proven guilty. The system’s job is to support someone who is accusing - not benignly believe them and mount a case only to discover that it all isn’t what it seems.

251

I would bet that every poster on this forum would be on board with most of the things you articulated in #250. There is no moral superiority in articulating goals that the vast majority of us hope can be achieved. No one on this forum as far as I can tell wants an assault to go unpunished or a student accused or disciplined unjustly.

Your posts indicate to me that you believe the campus discipline panels and the Title IX system as a whole are responsible for the failure to achieve most of the goals you articulate and of course we all share. While the public health model as articulated by the CDC recommends partnering with local and campus law enforcement – which most colleges already do- it does not recommend a dismantling of the Title IX system or the disciplinary panels that adjudicate campus assault. In fact it recommends strengthening as well as expanding it at some schools.

So are you on board with CDC’s model of “strengthening” the Title IX system and not dismantling it? And if not what does your public health model look like? Where do students report and how are claims adjudicated?

252

The Title IX systems could use adjustments and yes I think on some level have failed through their fear of federal involvement in their financial aid and their inability to do so fairly. if colleges want to leave elements of the Obama order in place and I have every belief that after the answer and question period, what will come out the other end will reflect a host of concerns then that will happen. I’m not a soothsayer so really have no idea what will stay and what will go from the Obama wish list and I have no idea what the role of our criminal justice system will take. I’m sure there are people out there that would like to dismantle it - heaven only knows how much it’s costing to staff these offices, lawyers, lawsuits etc. etc. If you think about it, that uni system is a perk for young women who are in college that young women not in college do not have, so as long as parents are willing to fund it, no doubt it will stay in some shape or form. If the requirement to support people with accusations of harassment and non criminal behavior were to suddenly disappear from the university responsibility then it will be up to the individual states to support if the need is great enough, but if that happens then those supports will be available to everyone, not just college students. Never say never in that regard.

On some level it might be better to separate it from university administration to reduce institutional bias…but again it’s all a crap shoot guess.

253

momofthreeboys, you asked, “How did we get back to rapes that are prosecuted in a court of law?” Here is a two-fold answer:

  1. The topic of this thread is the NYT article “Willing to do Everything,” Mothers Defend Sons Accused of Sexual Assault. If you Google the Denver Poster article about John D. Kennedy, the man who has been convicted of kidnapping and sexual assault, you will find that both he and his mother continue to protest his innocence, and say that he was only trying to “help.” He is on videotape carrying an unconscious woman from her apartment to his, and there is DNA evidence that he assaulted the woman. This situation fits the topic of the thread just as much as a case where the man is actually innocent.

  2. I think that the universities should handle their part of the situation internally, and the case can also be handled by the courts. However, I do not think it is right for the victim to have to wait for the court case to conclude, because of the length of time between the assault and the jury verdict. John D. Kennedy, referenced above, assaulted the woman on Halloween in 2105. A jury convicted him in June 2017. I do not think this time lag is atypical. Actually, this one was even more protracted that the Brock Turner case. In my view, this makes “just leave it totally to the courts” wrong.

254

Again court prosecuted cases are being attributed the same degree of criminal conduct as everything that happens on a campus and I find that interesting. To use that logic then all campus accusations should be taken to a court or law, so where does the line get defined? My guess is that after question and answer the line will be defined by the punishment and expulsions will require more than a feather’s weight of guilt but again we’re all just guessing. Finally, .to attribute the passion of one mother of one son to all mothers of sons is faulty logic and implies something that simply doesn’t exist. I know I would feel much different if my son were caught having sex with a passed out woman, than were he accused by a woman he’s been seeing and sleeping with more than once and who waits six months to a year to claim one of those nights was not to her liking or a third party who wasn’t in the same room decides to file…I’d want pretty irrefutable evidence that he has abused her that time before I’d except an expulsion without a fair process, a clear understanding of guilt, and all the evidence on the table and an attorney for guidance.

255

@momofthreeboys - Your #253 doesn’t really answer my question though. I was attempting to determine what system it is that **you ** think might work given your evisceration of the campus process. Aren’t you one of “the people out there that would like to dismantle it?” If not, then I have misread your posts.

You enthusiastically endorse a public health model which does not advocate for an end to campus adjudications. Rather it advances `an extremely comprehensive approach that engages on an individual, relationship, community and societal level. I would think an approach like that would encroach on your professed libertarian sensibilities. You have said many times that colleges have no business interfering in this aspect of students’ lives. I am not receiving a clear picture of just what it is that you think will work so campus assault claims do not remain unaddressed. Absent that information the constant, blanket criticism of Title IX and the students who report under that law appear to me as an inherent bias or a belief that these claims are not worth pursuing. No constructive suggestions are ever made that address a possible alternative to addressing what we all agree is a significant social issue.

The Title IX system is not just a “perk for young women who are in college…” Have you already forgotten that Title IX applies to both men and women?? Is it a “perk” for men who report under Title IX? Men in both heterosexual and same sex relationships report under Title IX.

And Title IX is also applicable to students in K -12 so hostile environments are addressed in the early years. This helps to ensure all students have equal opportunity for progression and are not thwarted in those very early, formative years.

256

Sheesh! I am not saying that the John D. Kennedy case is typical–just that it is an instance where a mother still believes that her son is innocent despite videotape and DNA evidence. No, I don’t think everything that happens on campus is like that. Where do you read that in what I wrote?

257

My coworker’s D filed a Title IX complaint at her school that was not adequately addressed. Coworker found out after the fact (didn’t even know it had happened at all until later) … asked me about the way it was handled, because I have some background (helped develop my school’s policies/procedures, with the help of a lawyer). I explained the law, coworker engaged a lawyer for the D, and justice finally prevailed. This was an abusive relationship situation, and the school would have preferred to just ignore it. It was really difficult to get resolution, even with the Title IX laws in place. I can’t imagine how hard it would be without the protections.

258

With regard to young men believing that they can get away with assault: Early on, there was a report that Labrie’s attorney J. W. Carney had suggested that St. Paul’s did not protect Labrie, because he was from a family of modest means. One can read a lot into that, or nothing. But from what I have read about the case, whatever you think Labrie did, it is pretty clear that he expected to get away with it. I am inclined to think that his expectation was founded on something in addition to the “deny till you die” plan–but maybe not.

259

Maybe the son of Judith, the woman in the NYTimes article, is like John D. Kennedy and Brock Turner: he raped an unconscious woman. Maybe her son is like the kid at Pomona: he had sex with a woman who was extremely drunk but enthusiastically consenting. Maybe her son had sex with a consenting woman who had had some drinks. We don’t know.

Here’s what we do know: numerous women whose sons are rapists defend them by saying that the women deserved it and should have known better. And lots of other people also defend rapists by saying the women deserve it and should have known better. On the other hand, women who aren’t in the habit of defending rapists are more likely to say, if they think their son is innocent, that although it is possible to have sex with a woman who is incapable of consent because of intoxication, their son instead had sex with a woman who clearly did consent by overt action. So when I see someone attacking the woman, I get suspicious.

I can’t tell whether Judith’s son is innocent. Maybe if I knew the facts I would think he was innocent. But what she says makes me suspicious. It’s what you say if you don’t believe there is any level of intoxication, up to and including total unconsciousness, that would make consent impossible.

260

I doubt there are very many people left who think women deserve to be raped Maybe a wackadoodle woman-hater, but not most and probably not many people… I think it’s totally possible to have sex with a woman who has been drinking. Heck lots of my sex married and not married has been with drinking but it doesn’t mean I didn’t and don’t have agency. So why, as a woman, would I not presume you can drink and still have agency? What happened if you give consent then somewhere in the middle of it you want out…how did you withdraw consent? If you did nothing and went along with it, you didn’t withdraw your consent. Enthusiastic is a loaded word, It’s not a rodeo, sometimes it is quiet. So the crux of it to me is what and how was withdrawal of consent done and/or what caused someone to lose their agency yet not be incapacitated…and go from there. But that’s for counselors and therapists, not for a tribunal of college employees. Meaty conversations indeed…easily said in theory…not so easy to execute. Even California’s consent law only applies to college campuses, which makes it almost a social experiment since women not in college don’t have the same rights in California. I suppose I’d have to see how it plays out in reality but really withdrawing consent is in the moment and the other person has to hear it or according to law clearly understand that consent is being withdrawn…not six months later.