The thing that makes this article different than the others on the topic that have been debated here, is that this group of moms seems to have been granted a private audience with Betsy DeVos (Trump’s Education Secretary) and that this personal contact may have resulted in changes to the way laws will be applied. Ms. DeVos did talk with victims, but apparently their stories did not resonate as strongly with her.
Maybe if we focus on that (the impact of individual stories, as opposed to research, on public policy) we can prevent this thread from devolving into @momofthreeboys and allies vs. everyone else like all of the other threads about campus rape do.
Who says what they are saying doesn’t make any sense? I read about Dakota case earlier. She makes perfect sense: he was falsely accused and expelled, and IIRC the university refused to let him return although there is actually a warrant out for the accuser.
What makes no sense is to automatically assume that all of their sons are guilty, even when they have been found NOT guilty by the lowest standard of evidence. It is this accusation=guilt attitude that drives people crazy, even people who deplore sexual assault and harassment, and the objectification of women.
I cannot comprehend people who take a “kill them all and let the lord sort them out” attitude in these or any other cases. It shows a profound lack of respect for individuals, both male and female.
@romanigypsyeyes I never “taught my son not to rape.” Everything about the way he was raised taught him to view women as fellow humans to be treated with the respect due every individual, not as objects. He was taught that human relationships should be thoughtfully engaged in. It never occurred to me that I needed to “tell” him not to rape someone.
I am no fan of Betsy DeVos, but it is highly prejudicial to describe her as “granting a private audience” to these women, but merely “talking to” others. It is more accurate to simply state that she met with both. I doubt that it had anything to do with her decision: I do have the strong impression that rolling back the Dear Colleague letter was on the checklist of things to do of this administration long before DeVos spoke to anyone involved.
@consolation perhaps not in those words but you still taught him not to rape (I assume). You taught him to keep his hands to himself? You taught him that “no means no”? You taught him to respect their partner’s choices? You taught him not to rape.
Unfortunately, too many men (even today) are being raised to believe that women owe them something. Or that women are property. Or that a date is automatically an invitation to sex. Etc etc. THESE boys are not being raised to not rape.
Never had a specific conversation about it that I recall. It is implicit in respecting others and being sensitive to their feelings.
As above, not explicitly. It is implicit. The idea that he would be some kind a jerk trying to cop a feel and score on girls was simply unthinkable, given his character and the way he was raised to view the relationship between men and women. Everything that I have seen of his relationships since then bears it out.
To put it another way, I tried to teach him how to have positive, mutually respectful relationships. That in and of itself precludes an exploitative mindset.
I didn’t indoctrinate him in “stranger danger” either.
The young woman’s letter is very powerful, and very sad.
His mother is unfortunately deluding herself. He carried her FROM a safe place to his room. How that could be cast as “helping” her is mind-boggling. There is video. She needs to deal with the horror of her son’s betrayal.
There ARE people with kids who are falsely accused of crimes. Then there are those who are just in denial.
From the article linked above in #21 regarding a mom defending her son who is now in jail (thank goodness for video!):
"But in court testimony, Kennedy, his mother, Robin Kennedy, and his friends denied he attacked the woman. Twenty-seven people wrote letters in his support. They said he was too soft-spoken, gentle and Christian to commit such a crime.
Robin Kennedy said the case was absurd.
“I absolutely feel sorry for (the victim) and her family,” Robin Kennedy said. “I understand the difficulty they are going through. I ask that they also remember that perception is not always reality. They have a great story.”"
In my opinion rape is not about sex, though sex is part of rape. Rape is about power. I told my Ds that there are 3 types of men in the world the good, the bad and the guys. The good and the bad differ in that the good guys don’t give you power over them, they are secure in themselves. The bad guys want power over you. They take away your ability to choose or take advantage of a situation where that ability is compromised. Finally are the guys. Most guys want to be liked and we associate being liked with affection and that does include the idea if a women will have sex with them they must like him. In that situation the woman is in control. Most guys aren’t looking for power over a woman they are looking for an affirmation of their own attractiveness.
Here is the thing. In my scenario the average guy can be taught what behavior is appropriate or not but judgement can be compromised and things can happen that neither party intend. Both parties need to check their behavior. The good guys will mostly not need it because they won’t need to put themselves such situations. Finally are the bad guys. This is where women need to be warned and protect themselves and be wary. You can’t teach these guys what is appropriate because their goal is to have control and women need to know how to not give it to them. You can call it blaming the victim all you want but education is not going to stop this behavior because it is not ignorance that is the problem.
Sometimes I think our current strategy is to treat all situations the same. In the end the problem does not get better and both men and women end up more confused about their relationships.
“Have consensual sex with a woman but don’t call her back the next day or don’t remember her name? If such a woman feels insulted, and has a discussion with her ultra-feminist RA about the now “negative sexual encounter,” a college man could find himself with the police on his front door one morning.”
I see this kind of talk rolled out repeatedly when these kinds of discussions are taking place. Where is this happening? Can you point me in the direction of data that says this is a common occurrence? I’m not looking for a one-off anecdotal story.
"I told my Ds that there are 3 types of men in the world the good, the bad and the guys. "
Back to the original post which is about mothers defending their sons, even regardless of evidence (post 21), some mothers (most?) think their sons are the good guys, even when they are the bad or the “guys”.
As parents, how we talk to our kids about relationships, sexuality, gender, does play a role, IMO. I think a lot of parents are still hesitant to talk openly with their children about such stuff. Talking to your kids about what constitutes a healthy relationship and healthy sexuality, talking about consent, not holding double standards between what is acceptable behavior for males and females, raising your children to be feminists, female AND male, children needs to happen. I still see a lot of “boys will be boys” excusing from parents.
When I read that story, I immediately thought of a few moms on CC.
Teaching young people exactly what is considered rape might be a place to start.
"Asked if they would “force a woman [into] sexual intercourse” against her will if no one would ever know and they’d never face any consequences, a whopping 31.7 percent said “yes.” But asked if they would “rape a woman” if they could get away with it, only 13.6 percent said they would.
Let that sink in: Not only would nearly a third of young men surveyed say they’d force a nonconsenting woman into sex, but most of those who would commit this violence didn’t even realize that would make them rapists.
The researchers noted some reasons why: Some men, they said, view “forced intercourse as an achievement,” where a woman saying “no” could be “perceived as a token resistance consistent with stereotypical gender norms.” That’s academic speak for “they believe that women who say ‘no’ really mean ‘yes.’ ”
"Teaching young people exactly what is considered rape might be a place to start.
“Asked if they would “force a woman [into] sexual intercourse” against her will if no one would ever know and they’d never face any consequences, a whopping 31.7 percent said “yes.” But asked if they would “rape a woman” if they could get away with it, only 13.6 percent said they would.”
I find that disturbing. I would consider “forcing a women into intercourse” rape. I had higher opinions of my fellow men than that. Equally disturbing is that 13.6 of young men would rape someone believing what they are doing is rape. There are more “bad guys” out there than I would have guessed.
Serious allegations of criminal misconduct with life altering consequences should be addressed by the legal system in the courts, with the proper procedures in place. Universities can stick with adjudicating academic violations and minor offenses against the college itself such as vandalism. I can’t think of other felonies between students colleges would even attempt to adjudicate.
I think most young adults know what rape and assault are. Most people understand what rape and assault is. Where everything breaks down is the hard stuff around intoxication vs. incapacitation. Around consent given and then retracted. Around pursuit vs. harassment. Around regret or retaliation and having genuinely been harmed. Some situations are clear and many are not so clear and require scrutiny as the not so clear situations will always have two sides of the story and to discount one side is wrong. To make broad generalizations is usually wrong. Until we get past this most basic step of generalizing and looking for blame to solve a time of social discontent we will never get past this point in the discussion in our country in my opinion.
I think alcohol is the red herring. Somehow it’s used to blame women as asking for it if they are intoxicated. The real issue is consent. In all cases of rape, there is no consent. If a victim, yes victim is intoxicated to the point where they/she can’t give consent. It is rape.
@momofthreeboys As the mother of 4 girls and 1 boy I agree with you – I teach my girls that they too are responsible for their own state so as not to be ‘victimized’ or ‘later ashamed’ or whatever it actually is-- and not that is not meant to blame the victim it is meant to protect yourself because yes who defines too drunk to consent and how would a boy who is probably also drunk KNOW what is too drunk absent like you said not being able to walk or passed out. I don’t want to see young women victimized but I also don’t want to see young men falsely accused.
The best analogy I can come up with is the HW case. Do I think some of the women consented and later regretted their decision…yes absolutely which is does not rise to the level of criminality. Makes him a jerk, but doesn’t make him a criminal. Do I think some of the women were touched inappropriately…probably and that is, in most states, a misdemeanor crime but probably with some statute of imitations in most places and it sounds like many never reported his actions to the police at the time the incidents occurred. Do I think some of the women were assaulted up to and including the level or rape… I don’t know but trust that prosecutors and investigators will figure it out. Do I think some mothers tell their sons to stay away from campus women these days…probably. Did I ever tell my younger two post Obama to do avoid women on campus…no I trust they understand the risk and rewards of intimate relationships. In Idaho two college students are suing each other and the university…both lawsuits claim the situation has caused ongoing problems with each plaintiff’s subsequent employment or education. I don’t see it stopping anytime soon unfortunately. And, I think it’s gone so far that society isn’t going to tolerate anything less than a court of law, so in some ways campus advocates are going to the lose the very thing they thought they were fighting for - a kinder, gentler, process for accusers - because of gross over reach by the colleges and universities on so many levels. Ironically I started at that position of moving it to the criminal courts, and gradually over the years started to except the college kangaroo courts with much more mandatory due process put in place, but I’m moving back toward turning it over to the criminal justice system. Time will tell.
Mindboggling.