Obama Opposes Reparations

Parent Cafe
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<p>Edvest, those descendant of the union soldiers (at least the white soldiers) were able to vote on policies they agreed with, go to the school of their choice, get better health care at hospitals better funded, plus a myriad of other benefits from being American and White. What did our Black Union soldiers get? Jim Crow. </p>

<p>No, your example doesn’t help your case.</p>

<p>As to Affirmative Action and Welfare. Well, I’m neither conservative or liberal; I’m a humanist. I beleive you do what is best for mankind, and it is up to the individual to sieze that opportunity and take advantage of it. Quite frankly, I think one of the worst things we ever did was the unintended consequences of an open-ended dependency state we created. Forgive the poor analogy, but a Mother bird forces the baby bird out of the nest to learn to fend for itself. She teaches it how to eat, then when it’s big enough it says, “Kid, in order to survive this world you need to fend for yourself”. Are there situations where we need to help out the disadvantaged permanently? Certainly (handicapped and severly ill come to mind). But we took a generation of able bodied and intelligent people and made them rely on help versus helping themselves. </p>

<p>But again, that is a symptom and not the disease.</p>

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<p>Bullet -
I think we’d have to look at population and immigration statistics, and tease out just who was here and benefited. A mathematical formula would have to be designed to remove people who deserved reparations for crimes against their families as well. We’d then have to send the bill to those we determined were the beneficiaries. What a task! </p>

<p>I think ensuring that real opportunity exists for everyone is the best approach to this and any other issue. The opportunity to get a free and appropriate education until age 18, the prospect of operating in a free market where you can build your family’s wealth unhindered by over-regulation and taxes, in a nation blessed by the freedom that only peace-through-strength can offer - these are the things that a government can and should do for everyone.</p>

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<p>Well, Poetsheart, my knickers were in a twist after reading #48, and BEFORE I read your response #52, so perhaps an adjustment of negative expectations is necessary.</p>

<h1>48 is such a ridiculous post that there wasn’t even anything there to debate. It’s nice to just let it stand and represent itself, which clearly you chose to do as well.</h1>

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<p>How very true. </p>

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<p>An interesting thing about generalizations and stereotypes is the they are sometimes true. No one wants to admit that but I believe that is the case. An example. I was watching a show on the food channel the other night. The chef was preparing a meal for a few hundred inner-city kids (almost all black and hispanic) and their families (yes, lots of fathers in the crowd so there’s one stereotype shot to hell) and he had 4 of the kids helping him in the kitchen. The time came to make the menu. I kid you not… Almost immediately one of the black kids chimed in with “we have to have fried chicken”. I happen to be a big fan of the fried bird myself so didn’t think twice about it at first. Then the stereotype thing came to mind. I bring this up to make the point is it was ok for the black kid to say that but if the white chef had openly said that it would have pretty much been the end of him. He may not have meant anything by it but he would have been as fried as one of those hens.</p>

<p>I don’t really see race relations in this country getting any better until all sides are allowed to speak their minds without fear of being ostracized for being honest. I’m sure there are plenty of things people would say that would (and do) hack me off but I’m a big boy. I can take it. Sometimes I hear things I don’t like because the truth hurts…</p>

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<p>^I feel like things are changing for the better, and I think the candidacy of Barack Obama has helped. I feel like there is a backlash beginning against the over-persecution of any perceived misstep, and also a movement towards putting a more candid discussion of race relations out onto the table (which is a good thing).</p>

<p>I haven’t yet thought through why I feel this way, but somehow I feel like race relations in this country have gotten A LOT better since Obama has hit the national scene. I think much of it has to do with the way he has fielded issues that have come up, and the way that he has conducted himself. Obama hits the right note that is somehow healing. He’s quite a charismatic leader. I’m not saying that he hasn’t made mistakes, but in general I think this is true (I still am not voting for him, because of his inexperience and positions on the economy and defense).</p>

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<p>^ spideygirl, agree with you 100% there. </p>

<p>Unfortunatley, civility and a actual debate / discussion where people address the issues, listen, and learn do not make for good ratings. A shame it is so…</p>

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<p>I would much prefer candidates who feel that they can speak their mind on issues. I would also like to feel free to speak my mind on issues but I’m not in a protected class so I cannot do that. I will say this. There have been many times on this board that I have said something that I really thought was true or accurate and if I hadn’t said it I would have never been corrected and known the truth. I think there are a lot of things that people think are true but in reality aren’t. Sometimes the civil discourse can bring about a lot of good. I’ll bet people aren’t as far apart on some of these things as they think. They are just afraid to have the talk for fear of being beat down and berated.</p>

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<p>^So true! Anything that limits free speech and civil discourse is bad for us all!</p>

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<p>I just watched “Guess Whose Coming To Dinner” again in the last few days. What a great movie. Poitier and Tracy are AMAZING in it. It was made in 1967, and it is fascinating to note what has and has not changed since then. One interesting line was by Poitier’s character (Dr. John Prentice) and it goes something like this: “Dad, the difference between you and me is that you think of yourself as a colored man, and I think of myself as a man”.</p>

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<p>The year that movie was made, a college friend of mine was disowned by her blue collar family for marrying an African of elite background who went on to do a Ph.D. and then on to the UNDP and World Bank. She, like the Poitier character, saw her husband as a man. Her father, saw him as a N*.</p>

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<p>Should the USA pay reparations to the Iraq?</p>

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<p>I had an experience last night that I think gives some weight to Obama’s call for increased education expenditures for the black community. D (white, upper middle class, private school education) had an internship this summer teaching an academic subject through a program called Breakthrough Collaborative. It is a program that serves inner city kids middle school kids who have the potential to go to college, but need some extra academic and counseling support that they don’t necessily get at home (or in their current schools). The program is funded partly through the city school district (they provide busing and meals), partly through her private school (that is the facility they use for the summer), and partly through private donors (who fund the teacher salaries and other expenses). Going into it I thought it would be a good experience for her (a real “7 -5 job” that actually paid a reasonable wage for an 18 year old, some diversity exposure, and a taste of teaching to see if she is interested in it as a career). </p>

<p>My respect for the program really grew as it progressed. I was surprised and impressed over the summer with the rigor of the academics in her lesson plans (grammar, vocabulary, writing skills, all stuff that will help the kids with high school work and SAT/ACT). Homework every day for the kids, with consequences if they didn’t do it. Two local college tours, and SAT questions of the day every day. Some fun stuff, too (camping, water balloon fights, etc). There is also a Saturday component to the program during the school year.</p>

<p>Last night they had their end of summer ceremony for the kids, and their parents & siblings all came for a potluck and performance. What really surprised me was how much these kids LOVED this program - - they were uniformly enthusiastic and articulate about how much the program has done for them (especially the 8th graders who had been with them for a few years). Boys in baggy shorts up on stage reading poetry about their love for the program (along with kids singing about cells and converting measurements for science). Wild cheering for their teachers, and many tears about parting from their peers and teachers when it was done. I was profoundly impressed, and realized that this program really has changed these kids lives. </p>

<p>What is sad is that their current public schools are not giving them these same opportunities (obvious in some of the comment cards my D got that they are unhappy to have to go back to their “regular” schools, and listing all the academic things D has taught them this summer). D also met with the parents in parent-teacher meetings, and talked to many of them on the phone – she said that while most of them want their kids to succeed, they don’t really have the skills to help the kids academically or to even begin to help them think about preparation for college. The program doesn’t really continue past 8th grade, except some college counseling and help in applying for scholarships. </p>

<p>We really need more programs like this, through the school year (ideally in their current schools, but supplementally if that can’t be done due to teacher unions and other issues…) and through the kids high school years – and that takes funding. It would be a lot smarter investment for our society than reparation, I think. But I think it is also clear that not many of these kids are going to break the cycle of poverty, drugs, gangs, and dropping out without this kind of support. I genuinely believe that due to this program these kids have a much greater chance of going to college, earning a good living (and therefore contibuting to our tax base and economy), and staying out of the criminal justice system (saving us tax dollars on that end).</p>

<p>I think Obama brings something special to this discussion - - both potentially an ability to see that more of these programs are funded (he is someone who sees the value in a good education) and some moral authority to encourage minorities to actually take advantage of those opportunities (again, he is a guy who has taken great opportunity of the advantages he has been given). I think his time as a community organizer in Chicago also gives him a view into the difficulties these programs will face, and will help assure that the programs we invest in actually produce results.</p>

<p>By the way, anyone reading this who thinks we should not spend tax dollars on this but should let “private donors” pick up the tab (or anyone who thinks we can’t wait for the government to get to this task) – feel free to be one of those donors. Look up Breakthrough Collaborative on the internet (they have programs in several major US cities) and I’m sure they would accept your donation!</p>

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<p>I love that some of you enjoyed my post in #48. However, I am curious what exactly gets you guys so excited about it. What in it is exactly totally untrue and totally out of context? Maybe I am brainwashed by the media, maybe not. Do you expect me to have sympathy for AAs because everyone else does? Or am I a racist because I seem to hate AAs because I generalize so negatively against them?</p>

<p>The way I see it, I do not care that they are black. They could be any other race. However, if that race acted as I believe AAs do, I would say the exact same thing. Yes, slavery was wrong and AAs did suffer tremendously, I am not disputing this. They should be given help. However, the way we’re going about it is all wrong. Affirmative action benefited very few of them because you’re giving them an unfair leg up. There are lots of races in America. However, it seems that the only one I ever see on TV and read about in the news is AAs. Why is this? How come when people treat Asians, Jews, Hispanics wrong I don’t see any NAACP (or the ethnic equivalent of the other races) ***** about how they’re being treated unfairly. The only race I ever see or hear about are from AAs. And just because I criticize this, people are like, “Oh my god, there’s a racist.” I’m sorry for not having sympathy for people who don’t work for it and get in just because they’re good at complaining. And as for my stereotypes, haven’t you guys ever noticed that all generalizations have some truth to it? Asians are good at math. White men can’t jump. Black people are good at sports and can rap. Black people are aggressive. Mexicans work hard for low pay. Do you think these could come up if there wasn’t some semblance of truth to them? Just because all of you are afraid to criticize AAs doesn’t mean that they’re all good and deserve help.</p>

<p>So yes, please tell me what is so outrageous with my comments…</p>

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<p>intparent:

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<p>Instead, perhaps anyone who would like to support such a program, like yourself, should consider sending a check today. </p>

<p>When you support “the government” paying for such things, you must realize that you are asking individual people to pay the government more of their money in order to do it. </p>

<p>Who should fund these programs? The top 1% of all income earners? The top 10%? The top 33%? Who would you like to pay for your good intentions (or help you to pay for them), instead of choosing and paying their money to their own chosen causes? The “evil rich”? We all know that the evil rich in our society are not really those who create businesses, innovations, opportunity and jobs, but instead are just…evil. Therefore, even if they are already paying $500,000 or more per year in taxes, they should pay even MORE to fund this and every other program that the non-payers or nominal amount-payers come up with.</p>

<p>To me, the essence of liberal thinking is feeling good about SPENDING OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY!</p>

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<p>Wow, spidey, that sarcasm was completely uncalled for and nasty.</p>

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<p>msl2008:

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<p>Actually, the opposite was true. Post #48 was ignored. I am ignoring post #73 as well, except to point out the ignoring part (which obviously was missed).</p>

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<p>^(re: #74&75) I don’t think it was “nasty” or uncalled for. I sincerely didn’t mean it as nasty - it’s my opinion and I obviously feel VERY strongly about it. Read the quote I provided from intparent. My response was right in line with that suggestion. I did go back and reread it to see if I want to clarify anything. Nope. I am sticking by what I said.</p>

<p>You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. Sometimes the truth hurts, BTW. I am really speaking to the argument, and to the notion of “government” paying for things.</p>

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<p>Your tone was polar opposite of intparent’s tone. That’s what was uncalled for. Belittling someone’s obviously sincere post is uncivil.</p>

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<p><a href=“I%20still%20am%20not%20voting%20for%20him,%20because%20of%20his%20inexperience%20and%20positions%20on%20the%20economy%20and%20defense”>quote</a>

[/quote]
Spideygirl, if you disagree with Obama’s positions on the economy and defense, then that is a very good reason for you not to vote on him. Ideally, we all should vote based on the candidate’s positions on the issues – and that’s what a campaign should be about. I certainly would expect that if you generally vote Republican you would be inclined to vote for McCain and there is nothing wrong with that. </p>

<p>However, I don’t think that “inexperience” by itself should be a reason to reject Obama – and in the context of the discussion on this thread, I think you should ask yourself why you would require that an African American man have more experience than a white man to be president. And I also think that you should analyze what you mean by experience – this fall will be the first time since the election of Lyndon Johnson that voters put a Senator or former Senator in office – for the most part legislative experience does not necessarily translate all that well into executive experience. </p>

<p>Consider the backgrounds of the following presidents:</p>

<ul>
<li>a single term of in the House of Representatives (Abraham Lincoln)</li>
<li>2 years as a governor + 6 months as vice president (Theodore Roosevelt)</li>
<li>2 years as a governor (Woodrow Wilson)</li>
<li>4 years as a governor (Franklin Roosevelt)</li>
</ul>

<p>No one doubts that McCain has spent more years in the Senate and has been a very effective Senator, but being a legislator is not the same as being President. As a former lawyer, I find it somewhat analogous to the transition from being a lawyer to being a judge – the role shifts from being an adversary to being a fair and impartial arbiter. Some lawyers who become judges handle that shift well; others don’t and they make very poor judges because of their biases.</p>

<p>I think that if you are looking at experience, then you should look at everything else that goes to inherent qualifications: education, intelligence, overall competence. Which candidate seems better informed? Which seems to be more capable as a manager of his own campaign staff? Keep in mind that a 47 year old man is by definition going to be far less experienced than a 72 year old man – but if you were making a hiring decision in the private sector, you’d also think about issues like the person’s overall health, energy level, resilience. In the private sector, most likely the job would go to the younger man. </p>

<p>I do think that Obama certainly has had a rather meteoric rise --but sometimes when people rise through the ranks very quickly it is sometimes because they are very smart and very proactive, which are good qualities in a leader. </p>

<p>To me, I do hear a little bit of a tinge of that “legacy of inferiority” when I hear so much made of Obama’s “inexperience” – its the sense that in order for a minority to be seriously considered for a position of responsibility, he has to not only be qualified, but be demonstrably better than all of the white male candidates.</p>

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<p>Well spidey, it’s because of people like you that things will always be the same…b/c no one wants to face reality and would rather sit up there in their ivory tower. </p>

<p>If we really want AAs to succeed there a few things that need to be done: we need to put money in the inner city schools, get rid of the gangs in the inner city, and have responsible parents who make sure their kids don’t get into drugs/gangs. Oh yeah, and cancel affirmative action because for the most part it’s useless.</p>

<p>intparent-it would be nice if we had all the funding for those programs such as what you described. however, the sad truth is that the public schools will always be the backbone of education in our country. so we need to fix those.</p>