<p>And I said that is indicated an increasing rise but didn’t indicate how much. You asked for credible sources to be referenced. I referenced one. You obviously didn’t like what it had to say.</p>
<p>My parents live in Florida! I better sound the alert! Something tells me Florida was under water way long ago when CO2 levels were high before the invention of the ModelT.</p>
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And I quantified it, which contradicted your estimate of 300 years for the sea to rise 1 foot (opposed to ~50 years).</p>
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No, the brochure is fine, just incomplete. The article I cited fills in the holes of the brochure. What I didn’t like was your extrapolation that everything would be fine based on the current rate, which is naive and incorrect.</p>
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It’s hard to unpack your argument through your sarcasm (quite the useful rhetorical device, I’m sure), but are you saying that just because CO2 levels have been naturally high in the past, that means they cannot be artificially raised as well? If so, do you have any scientific basis to this argument, or are you only capable of tangential snarky comments?</p>
<p>[PALEOCLIMATE:</a> Was the Medieval Warm Period Global? – Broecker 291 (5508): 1497 – Science](<a href=“http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/sci;291/5508/1497?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&volume=291&firstpage=1497&resourcetype=HWCIT]PALEOCLIMATE:”>http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/sci;291/5508/1497?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&volume=291&firstpage=1497&resourcetype=HWCIT)</p>
<p>Not a subscriber so I can’t get the whole thing. Sorry. Even thought we may be contributing we are not the cause of climate change.</p>
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I’m away from campus, so I don’t have my subscription for now either.</p>
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I’m curious as to the relative importance of these contributions - whether he says it is largely oscillatory in nature or largely greenhouse gases makes all the difference.</p>
<p>I don’t know…I’m curious myself.</p>
<p>Was that the 1918 epidemic, or something more recent that I don’t know about?</p>
<p>Wow, lot’s of catch up reading to do since last night. The thread seems to have morphed into a “climate change” topic. Hmmm… I think we have much more serious issues to worry about than this theory. I actually like the way George Carlin described this liberal obsession in his “The Planet is Fine” routine:</p>
<p>"We’re so self-important. So self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these f****** people kidding me? Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven’t learned how to care for one another, we’re gonna save the f****** planet?</p>
<p>I’m getting tired of that s<strong><em>. Tired of that s</em></strong>. I’m tired of f****** Earth Day, I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a s*** about the planet. They don’t care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me."</p>
<p>"… there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are f*****. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We’ve been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we’ve only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we’re a threat? That somehow we’re gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that’s just a-floatin’ around the sun?</p>
<p>The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles…hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages…And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet…the planet…the planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!"</p>
<p>RIP George.</p>
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Terpdad, I’d be thrilled. We’ve got lots of coal, a fair amount of natural gas, it’s cheap energy. Cheap energy has fueled (literally) a lot of the improvement in living quality over the past 100 years. Nothing would make me happier than to have somebody discover a legitimate loophole that would make global warming go away, and allow us to continue to power our nation with fossil fuels. (Petroleum would still be a problem, since most of it is in the Middle East - but we got coal!) </p>
<p>But as a dad I don’t think I’m doing my job for my kids to just whistle and pretend that the problem doesn’t exist, or will somehow magically go away. (I feel the same way about the national debt.) The thing I find kind of amusing is that righties are constantly fulminating about how the “lllliiberuls” are so impractical and unrealistic - yet the people who are the biggest “free lunchers” are those who prefer to leave our kids to deal with all the messes we’ve made, by just pretending that they don’t exist.</p>
<p>George Carlin was priceless … and very funny. God rest his soul. But like most (all?) comedians, he exaggerated.You have to believe we weren’t put on this planet so we could use it, abuse it, pollute it, and trash it. Burn the rainforests, melt the polar icecaps, kill off other species. … I doubt that a loving and benevolent God had that in mind for us … but who am I to say?.. </p>
<p>I’m sure you’re right when you note that the planet has been through other horrible things–but earthquakes, volcanos, plate tectonics, continental drift, etc., don’t have minds and souls, and certainly don’t have control over what they do. We’re supposedly “special,” if you believe Biblical teachings. We’re a feeling species, capable of choosing whether we’ll wreck the environment that gives us life, or preserve it. I doubt a volcano can decide if it wants to spew toxic gases into the atmosphere, or not.</p>
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<p>Ahhhh! I didn’t ask for a nasty virus, ugolini! I merely speculated that might be Mother Nature’s punishment for an environmentally abusive human race! Actually, I think I stole that “theory” from Richard Preston, author of The Hot Zone.</p>
<p>The only free lunches I see are those who want government to pay for them. It’s just as bad to think something exists without absolute consensus. I wouldn’t describe the right as fulminators that 's more of a leftist mindset. It’s just as ridiculous to think we can tax ourselves to death without cutting spending. But B.O.'s got big plans to spend even more!</p>
<p>Even more alarming is that while Obama wants to spend more, he wants to shrink the percentage of the population who pay taxes.</p>
<p>Consequently, he will have to further increase the amount of taxes that that smaller group pays. (Guess that’s where he got the idea to double the Capital Gains tax).</p>
<p>These are not sound economic policies for the U.S. Even McCain knows that! haha!</p>
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But you see, that’s the whole point. </p>
<p>The vast, vast majority of contemporary environmentalists care about the planet because even small perturbations in the planet can have extraordinary impacts on human civilization as we know it. The planet will end up fine; the relevant question is what happens to us when the planet reacts to our presence?</p>
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<p>terpdad–You’re a nicer person than this. I know you are. While some people may “want” the government to buy their lunches, there are plenty of others out there who simply “need” a helping hand. And any true Christian would believe that Christ wanted us to “help” the needy. That’s what he said, over and over again. Or was he only kidding? … The fact that Americans actually try to be decent and take care of the less fortunate among us, is what sets us apart. It’s why I love my country.</p>
<p>“there are plenty of others out there who simply “need” a helping hand”</p>
<p>And there are thousands upon thousands of others who simply take advantage of our generous helping hand…because we make it too easy for them.</p>
<p>TerpDad, the government’s spending has remained remarkably stable in relation to the GDP since the 1950’s. To the extent that there’s any fluctuation federal spending has generally been higher under Republican administrations than Democratic ones. The only real difference is that in the past 30 years Republicans have cut taxes below the level needed to keep the national debt in proportion to the economy - which means Republicans steal from our kids to funnel money to the primary beneficiaries of the tax cuts - which is the ultra wealthy. Here’s the source data:<a href=“http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/pdf/hist.pdf[/url]”>http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/pdf/hist.pdf</a> go to page 318 - second column from the left.</p>
<p>TerpDad, I know you’re just faithfully repeating “truisms” which you’ve had fed to you over and over for years - but they’re actually false. The Republicans are the party of the free lunchers - at our kid’s expense. You’ve been lied to. Pretty effectively, too, from the sound of it.</p>
<p>I assume there are some people who take advantage of the system, but I’m not cynical enough to believe that most do. If we’re all made in God’s image, then God isn’t necessarily someone I’d like.</p>
<p>Hindoo, very nice sentiment. But let’s be real here. Our welfare state is a disgrace. Why do you think illegals have flocked here, have children here, and expect to be taken care of by us, the taxpayers? It is too easy!</p>
<p>And Kluge, the problem isn’t he Republicans cutting taxes, it is the liberals increasing social programs for undeserving “guest workers”.</p>