<p>Quote: “She can’t take her children to a particular dentist because it is on a second story without handicapped access. If she really wanted to, she could make a stink, or sue the guy and make him provide access.”</p>
<p>I think that a small business is not subject to ADA. Would a dentist in private practice have to have accomodations if he has, for instance, 5 employees?</p>
<p>I don’t have a weight problem, and I think “consequences” may be one of the many things that might play a role in improving outcomes, but I don’t think it’s as simple a choice as people without weight problems suggest. I have two kids, one with a weight problem one without. One looks just like my sister in law, who also has a weight problem, one looks just like my brother who does not have a weight problem. Both kids were raised 3000 mile away from family, and with the same food choices, role models, and education. They are different in their choices, and they both have their struggles, and at some level I believe it reflects something inborn. I believe they are both “judged” because of the way they appear. Their handicaps are not obvious ( the one without the weight problem has “ADHD”, also a grey and somewhat subjective “disorder”), and on the surface simply seem to have poor self-control.</p>
<p>With regard to private practice, and any other business, you loose customers if you can’t accomodate them, and some managed care companies require accomadations if you want to be on their panel.</p>
<p>Making proper food choices would go a long way to preventing obesity. In the days before pre-packaged and prepared foods, obesity was rare. It is really quite easy to limit one’s diet to fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, whole grains, nuts, lean meats, fish, eggs and cheese. Everyone (except those with food allergies) can start making these healthy choices immediately.</p>
<p>cross-posted with Shrink.</p>
<p>One way to ensure proper food choices by children is to prohibit any non-healthy foods from entering your house, packing them a lunch, and giving them no money.</p>
<p>I agree; no junk in my house…usually…in fact, I breast fed my overweight child for her first year of life, didn’t introduce foods until after six months, drove 45 minutes for whole wheat couscous and grew vegetables which I steamed and pureed. My skinny child had fruit loops ( just kidding about the latter, sort of…). Recently my child saw me eating potato chips…or maybe it was ice cream…you would have thought I was drinking scotch from the bottle! I wondered if I had overdone the healthy role model thing.</p>
<p>Quote: “With regard to private practice, and any other business, you loose customers if you can’t accomodate them, and some managed care companies require accomadations if you want to be on their panel.”</p>
<p>I was referring to a poster saying that a dentist could be sued, presumably under ADA, for not having an elevator installed in a building that s/he probably doesn’t own. I was not referring to gaining or losing business if s/he doesn’t have an elevator. I believe that there are exemptions for small businesses under ADA. </p>
<p>As to obesity and diet, generally if you look hard enough there is a cause for obesity in someone’s diet or lifestyle. I guess there are always posters here who think that obesity comes from something other than the obvious, but in situations where people are deprived of food for whatever reason, they universally lose weight.</p>
<p>collegialmom,
you might be right, I’m not sure. I recently wanted to do some remodeling at my small business. We have very little “public” trade and the architect told me that we could be in trouble for not having handicapped access. We bought the building we currently occupy and it does not have access. My girlfriend has been here but she basically had to crawl up the two front steps. </p>
<p>I’m not sure of the legalities. I wasn’t trying to hijack the thread. I guess I was just trying to make a point about accomodating disabilities and whether obesity is in that category. For me, it could be but there is a bit of a line to draw when those things that are necessary to avoid discrimination suits (like not making someone buy two airlilne seats) end up making someone else uncomfortable (like my husband who was squashed during the flight).</p>
<p>My sister, until this summer, was very obese. This runs in the family; my mother is somewhat overweight, and my stepfather is very obese.</p>
<p>She went to a camp designed to help facilitate a healthy lifestyle, mainly through lots of fun physical activity and eating good portions of healthy food. She is now far less obese, and I think has actually gone back into a normal weight range. And she is maintaining it, and continuing to get more healthy every day.</p>
<p>It’s absolutely a struggle for her. As a family, we support her every day by keeping crappy food out of the house so she’s not tempted. It’s still hard though, and it has taken her a ton of effort to get more healthy. </p>
<p>But my point is, it’s possible. I’m not saying everyone should be able to instantly shed 100 pounds to get down to some ideal weight, but obesity is not quite the same kind of disability that other disabilities are.</p>
<p>
But people are different. I’ll select an extreme example - What about a Pima Native American? They have a strong genetic disposition to be obese in today’s society. Their bodies evolved over millennia to be very efficient due to their subsistence in the desert. Wind the clock to today when they have a grocery store across the street and they virtually all end up obese when they eat the same quantities of food as most of us who aren’t obese. This has all been proven by multiple scientific studies of them. </p>
<p>One might casually see one of these obese individuals and just assume that they eat way more than most, don’t get any exercise, etc. but they definitely are much more challenged in this area than the majority.</p>
<p>The Pimas are an extreme case but we all need to realize that there are others who also are challenged to various extents. I think a statement like “who just like to eat too much and exercise too little” is over-simplifying a complex issue. If it were quite that easy I doubt obesity would be the problem it is today. I agree that ‘most’ people would be able to manage their obesity reasonably through proper diet and exercise but let’s at least realize that it’s much easier for some people than others. In the case of the Pimas, they’d probably have to resort to eating only pinion nuts and seeds in order to achieve a ‘normal’ weight.</p>
<p>If I was seated on a bus and saw an obese person standing and obviously in some discomfort because of their size, I’d give up my seat for them as I would for an elderly person or someone on crutches. This would be common courtesy.</p>
<p>Since I hire people only for their brains and the ability to type at a keyboard whether they’re obese or not wouldn’t a factor in my decision. </p>
<p>Given this, I don’t know what Richardson’s really trying to achive other than a photo-op. What exactly would change if obesity were added to ADA and how would it be defined?</p>
<p>I don’t think the obese should be discriminated against for employment. But I do think they should be considerate of others when it impacts more than just themselves. </p>
<p>For example, I recently took a flight to London. I was in the aisle seat in a row of four seats. An obese mother and her equally obese son had the other aisle seat and the seat next to that. There was one empty seat between us. The son actually moved over and sat next to me instead of his mother. His arm went over the arm rest into my seat and his leg extended onto my seat. Now why should I have to suffer being crushed because he wanted to be more comfortable and not have to sit next to his mother? I wish I had had the nerve to complain. I can’t see how that’s being bigoted.</p>
<p>I work with obese individuals and know that in the vast majority of cases it’s fatty food, as well as beer and other alcohol and lack of exercise that causes it. </p>
<p>I have very little empathy for these people as opposed to people with other problems such as seizure disorders, diabetes not related to diet, psychiatric conditions that are chemically based, neuromuscular wasting disorders, asthma, etc etc etc. (not at all an inclusive list.) You may give up a bus seat to obese individuals, but I have to deal with their problems related to excess, and it is truly a waste of healthcare dollars, along with problems related to smoking. Scrap obesity and smoking and I think the health care budget would go way down. And their quality of life would go way up, as well as those around them. This is what I see, and I will leave the other theories to those who can support their theories with good evidence.</p>
<p>As to airline seats, I would complain if someone were encroaching on my seat for whatever reason. </p>
<p>I do have obese friends, but it doesn’t mean that I respect their obesity. I find it annoying that they want to order the “Death by Chocolate” dessert when I would rather eat an orange or no dessert. Is this somehow genetic? I think it is a lifestyle choice.</p>
<p>There have been a number of scientific studies on the Pimas. Some references -
<a href=“http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm[/url]”>http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.pbs.org/saf/1110/features/fighting.htm[/url]”>http://www.pbs.org/saf/1110/features/fighting.htm</a></p>
<p>As I said, the Pimas are an extreme case and not the norm but they illustrate that what’s simple for one person might not be so simple for another person. I agree that there are ‘lifestyle choices’ that are a significant factor in the obesity for the majority and therefore their obesity could be reasonably controlled. The point is that how easy this ‘control’ is varies from person to person. </p>
<p>
I think it might some of both. Humans have generally evolved to crave fats and sugars and needed to as a matter of subsistence and there’s no doubt some brain wiring to this effect. Some people might be more wired than others for these cravings and some people have more ‘efficient’ bodies than others. At the same time, just becasue people might be ‘wired’ to crave these foods doesn’t mean they couldn’t override some of that wiring with their choices. I think a lot of us exercise that override frequently and some people refuse to override. </p>
<p>There’s also fairly recent evidence that some obese people are lacking the ‘full factor’ hormonal function so they tend to eat more than others.
<a href=“http://news.ufl.edu/2003/02/26/obesefullness/[/url]”>http://news.ufl.edu/2003/02/26/obesefullness/</a></p>
<p>Regarding airline seats - I know that some airlines will require some obese passengers to purchase 2 seats if they can’t fit into one seat. If I were on a flight where I was made very uncomfortable by someone being half in my space I’d either say something to them or ask a flight attendant if I could change seats.</p>
<p>“psychiatric conditions that are chemically based”</p>
<p>The evidence for this isn’t much better than that related to addiction and obesity…not that I don’t think there is SOME truth in it. Many things about the human experience are complex. I like to think it’s what makes us human.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>collegialmom, I certainly understand your “it’s their fault they are having these problems so why should we accomodate them?” rationale. I’m assuming that also applies to paraplegics injured in car wrecks that were their own fault? Just makes you want to kick 'em right out of those chairs, don’t it? Give them to the more deserving. </p>
<p>How far should we take our “Campaign for Personal Responsibilty”? Deny them medical care? or just charge them more for insurance, too? Of course they might not be able to get a job (certainly tough without accomodations) but hey- they chose to drive home when they were sleepy, right? They can always sell pencils from a cup. Edit: And hey!! Don’t forget to charge them double at the movies. Those chairs take up lots of room. </p>
<p>Or is it the continued irresponsibility of the obese that offends? </p>
<p>What about depressed folks who have overeating as a symptom of their illness ? Should they just snap out of it and quit malingering? How would we ever know for whom we should feel empathy? I mean if they’d just clean themselves up a little bit, buy one of those Suzanne Somers’ Thighmasters and …</p>
<p>So , I think you are right. If you had anything to do with your lot in life being a pile of crap well…tough. We don’t have time to care.</p>
<p>I know! I know! We can get a patch they have to wear that says whether a person needs accomodation because of their own actions and a different color if they are “innocent”. They can wear it and then we’d know for whom we should feel empathy. Maybe a red donut for fat people, and a red car for folks who hurt themselves in a carwreck…</p>
<p>“So , I think you are right. If you had anything to do with your lot in life being a pile of crap well…tough. We don’t have time to care.”</p>
<p>I happen to care very much, but I still don’t want anyone sitting on me. I’ve been dealing with the seat on the bus issue for over 20 years and I have an observation (but no conclusion): it’s almost always men who impinge on others’ seats on the express bus. Women will contort themselves or sit in the aisle seat and hang over into the aisle rather than take up someone else’s seat, whereas men will spead their legs like a wishbone and make no effort to fit in the space for which they paid. Flame away.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>LOL. That seems infinitely fair to me, too.</p>
<p>^^^“whereas men will spead their legs like a wishbone and make no effort to fit in the space for which they paid.”</p>
<p>:) Maybe they’re just trying to spread the love?</p>
<p>Actually, I’ve noticed the same tendencies on planes with men who will elbow the armrest without the slightest guilt and women who go overboard to avoid touching. But then, I’ve also been annoyed by moms (and I guess dads too) whose kids do more to make the flight unbearable than competing over the arm rest ever would.</p>
<p>collegialmom, I certainly understand your “it’s their fault they are having these problems so why should we accomodate them?” rationale. I’m assuming that also applies to paraplegics injured in car wrecks that were their own fault? Just makes you want to kick 'em right out of those chairs, don’t it? Give them to the more deserving.</p>
<p>“How far should we take our “Campaign for Personal Responsibilty”? Deny them medical care? or just charge them more for insurance, too? Of course they might not be able to get a job (certainly tough without accomodations) but hey- they chose to drive home when they were sleepy, right? They can always sell pencils from a cup. Edit: And hey!! Don’t forget to charge them double at the movies. Those chairs take up lots of room.”</p>
<p>Actually drivers with records of DUI get charged a lot more for auto insurance, so that would justify charging obese people and smokers more for health insurance. Many life insurance policies give discounts to nonsmokers and for auto insurance for wearing seat belts. Or are seat belts too much to ask as well, since we are all paying for other people’s beliefs, and the right to remain unbelted is one of those, too?</p>
<p>Quote: “What about depressed folks who have overeating as a symptom of their illness ? Should they just snap out of it and quit malingering? How would we ever know for whom we should feel empathy? I mean if they’d just clean themselves up a little bit, buy one of those Suzanne Somers’ Thighmasters and …”</p>
<p>Depression is highly treatable.</p>