Octuplets' mom already has 6 young kids at home.

Parent Cafe
841

<p>mimk6,</p>

<p>While the psychiatrist says she hasn’t treated Nadya and is basing her opinion on prima facie evidence, if the laws in CA are similar to other states (and I am guessing they are) confidentiality is automatically waived when one has to make a report to the Dept of Family and Childrens services. There are a few cases (imminent danger to ones self or others, abuse/neglect of children or older adults) where confidentiality is waived. The Nicole Simpson case differs in that, as you stated, confidentiality does supercede death, and none of these aforementioned conditions to waive confidentiality was met.</p>

842

<p>The psychiatrist and N.S. seem like a good pair. The doctor does quite well being in the public eye. She did residency at NYU Bellevue, med school in Europe. In 2005, wrote Jacko (Michael Jackson), Why we love bad boys, etc.</p>

<p>[Carole</a> Lieberman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carole_Lieberman]Carole”>Carole Lieberman - Wikipedia)
[Expert</a> Witness for Criminal and Civil cases & Forensic Psychiatrist](<a href=“http://www.drcarole.com/expert.htm]Expert”>Expert Witness for Criminal and Civil cases & Forensic Psychiatrist)
[Carole</a> Lieberman - FamousWhy](<a href=“http://people.famouswhy.com/carole_lieberman]Carole”>Famous People Biographies, Pictures, Photo Galleries, Questions and more - FamousWhy)</p>

843

<p>The fact that Dr. Lieberman is a member of the screen actors guild seems a little strange, but being chief resident at Bellvue in NY is nothing to look down upon.</p>

<p>We dont know who released the DFACS report to the media (ie to Entertainment Tonight). If she did, then I agree it was in part probably a media ploy. If she didnt, and simply make a report to the CA Child protective services and someone leaked it, then her report may not be that much different from the remainder of the public outcry for the protection of the children and the negative response to Nadyas choices, behaviors and bad judgement.</p>

<p>Edit:
**** Ahhhh she is a media psychiatrist – lots of TV air time [Dr</a>. Carole Lieberman - TV Talk Show, TV Guest and TV Show Host](<a href=“http://www.drcarole.com/tvAppearances.htm]Dr”>Dr. Carole Lieberman - TV Talk Show, TV Guest and TV Show Host)</p>

844

<p>I feel as mimk does about this psychiatrist. And this was before any links posted about her today as I never looked up a thing about her. But she is not the treating psychiatrist. She is just another observer of what is in the media (albeit she has a background in the field). I don’t think the DFACS needs a report from someone who is following the story in order to proceed with their involvement. That psychiatrist wrote much about what many observers here wrote about the case, though she had some professional analysis thrown in. This is not a report by someone who is INVOLVED with this family. In my view, since she is not reporting anything that is different than many others have observed and she is NOT the treating doctor, her motivation comes across as publicity for her own self.</p>

845

<p>I am not disagreeing that this psychiatrist appears to be a media hound. I am hoping to clarify that even if she was the treating MD, she isn’t breaching confidentiality, and by formally filing a complaint, FCS must deal with it. I agree, they surely would have anyway, but the complaint formalizes it. I suspect if the psychiatrist were asked why she filed the complaint she’d say she felt compelled, under the requirements of her licensure, to report suspected neglect, and that she was doing this only with the best interest of the children in mind. Yeah right. Other psychologists and psychiatrists did not seem to feel the need to file a mandated report.</p>

846

<p>alh, a few pages ago you asked about the likelihood of high-multple pregnancies wiih IVF and other infertility treatments. Most of the triplets and higher come from non-IVF infertility treatments, because with IVF there is control of how many embryos are transferred. In other treatements, the woman is often given gonadoropins to hyperstimulate ovulations. The goal is usually to produce a few eggs, but it is entirely possible to produce dozens. (I once had 21 eggs in an IVF procedure when I was 40.) A responsible doctor will stop a cycle if too many eggs are growing before triggering ovulation with an injection of HCG. If many eggs are produced and the woman has intercourse or is insemnated, then there can be a high-order multiple pregnancy. In IVF, even if dozens of eggs are produced, the embryos are created outside the body, and normally only 2 or 3 are transferred at once. The others are normally frozen for use in later attempts. For this reason, IVF rarely produces more than twins. </p>

<p>It’s important to keep in mind that there is no evidence that either Suleman or the cowboy doctor had any intention of causing an octuplet pregnancy. From what I gather, his success rates are so abysmally low that he routinely transfers as many as 7 embryos in order to increase his success rates to a very, very low 10%. Apparently, he works without an embryologist (this is unheard of for IVF clinics), and this would explain the low success rates. It also implies that he does not have freezing capability, so any embryos created would have to be either transferred or destroyed. It seems that, even when he tranfers many embryos, the most likely outcome is no pregnancy! But the possiblity of quads or more exists, and it is criminal to take this risk.</p>

847

<p>The thing is–even if this pregnancy had resulted in only one baby, Suleman would still be in bad shape raising 7 kids with no job, no insurance etc. It still would have been a bad decision to have had so many IVF treatments and to have paid for them using her disability money and (possibly) her student loans. BUT, we may have never even known about it—she would have taken that one baby home and her mother would be stuck with one more to babysit and to pay for while Nadya went on her merry way back to school. So the argument that she didn’t intend to have octuplets doesn’t fly with me–6 kids were already too many in her situation.</p>

848

<p>Can someone clarify-- is it Suleman or the older other patient of this fertility doc (the one carrying quads) or both who didnt have insurance and simply showed up at the hospital to be treated. I thought she showed up at the Kaiser facility when she was 2 mos pregnant. If she doesnt have Kaiser insurance, they wouldnt be required to take her as a patient. That said, one of the rural hospitals here closed its OB-GYN dept because so many women were showing up in labor that had no insurance and no prenatal care. It was costing the docs and the facility so much money (can’t turn away a patient in an emergency) they chose instead simply to close the department. So now they all go to the neighboring hospital with the same situation.</p>

849

<p>NYmomof2: Thanks so much for that explanation. And after pages and pages I’m still reading… and still feeling sorry for her. </p>

<p>“It’s important to keep in mind that there is no evidence that either Suleman or the cowboy doctor had any intention of causing an octuplet pregnancy.”</p>

<p>That is what I believe too. There was no intent to end up the most (in)famous woman in the country. For 20plus years I’ve been hearing of friends’ IVF experiences – all responsible, well-educated, thoughtful women, but imho involved with clinics of varying levels of responsibility and expertise – and some of them have been put in positions of making decisions that seem unimaginable to me. More than one friend had 6 embryos transplanted. .One has more children than she had really planned on – though not close to 14.</p>

<p>NYmomof2- you have been through it. Do you feel Suleman’s behavior was inexcusable? (perhaps leaving out the fact she already had six young children) or just the doctor’s? Also, just to clarify- you think the octuplet pregnancy did not result from “stored” embryos?</p>

850

<p>I can’t leave this topic alone. Way back in post 151, a doctor speculates that this woman received IVF in return for donating eggs and I’ve been mulling that over in my mind ever since reading it. Because usually only well-off women get IVF. I don’t think IVF welfare babies are the norm and wonder if these are the only ones. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/magazine/30Surrogate-t.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/magazine/30Surrogate-t.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Who else read this story in the times? Hope I linked correctly. The author paid a surrogate to carry her child. The surrogate’s daughter sold eggs. The money was used for college.</p>

<p>Both these stories make me think about who gets to have children and why.</p>

851

<p>Yes, I’ve been through it. 10 IVF attempts, five resulting in pregnancies, one live birth. It turned out that I had a rare condition, unrelated to the infertility, which was “male factor,” that caused recurrent miscarriage. The first three cycles were at 3 different clinics, none of which could get fertilization. The last 7 were at a 4th clinic with an exceptionally skilled embryologist. The result of the live birth just turned 16, so my experience was a long time ago. </p>

<p>First, my husband and I were required by all 4 clincs to undergo a psychological screening by on-staff psychologists. At all clinics, the doctors were frank, sometimes brutally frank, about the chances of achieving pregnancy. Some women were told that they had almost no chance of conceiving a child. No one was handing out any false hope.<br>
Do I think Suleman was irresponsible? Yes, completely. As others have pointed out, she had no business continuing to have children even if she hadn’t ended up with octuplets. Taking the risk of a high-order multiple pregnancy is extremely irresponsible, although she may have been badly advised by the doctor, who is the real culprit here. </p>

<p>I am not sure whether the octuplet pregnancy resulted from fresh or frozen embryos. At first, the story was that all the embryos for all the pregnancies came from one very productive stimulation cycle, with a fresh transfer and several later transfers of fronzen embryos. But now it seems that she underwent multiple cycles. And when I learned that the clinic does not have an embryologist, I decided that they must not have freezing capability.</p>

852

<p>NYmomof2: I don’t even know how to respond … I don’t know how you endured it and think you were brave beyond belief for all you went through for your child.</p>

<p>“First, my husband and I were required by all 4 clincs to undergo a psychological screening by on-staff psychologists.”</p>

<p>This is one of the many issues I’m having trouble processing. Do you think Suleman would have passed the screening process you and your husband underwent? And my profound apologies if anything I write in any way seems to trivialize your experiences. That is absolutely not my intention. It is really difficult for those of us who haven’t had to go through what you did to really get it and of course we can never understand. These questions and decisions are only theoretical to me; you have lived them.</p>

853

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<p>That’s the Bill Frist method of medical diagnosis. :D</p>

854

<p>and now they might be homeless because apparently the current home is 10 months behind in the mortgage and the bank is preparing to foreclose.</p>

855

<p>The entire case is a train wreck in so many respects and not just in the number of children!</p>

856

<p>Homeless?!!! Eeeek!</p>

857

<p>alh, There is no way Suleman would have passed the screening. I imagine that she ended up with Dr. 10% because better clinics refused to accept her. I have never heard of anyone who was so willing to do so many cycles after having several kids. She would have raised many red flags.</p>

<p>That last IVF attempt, the one that produced S1, was going to be my last. I was at the end of my endurance. I would not have done nearly so many if adoption had been a possibility for us; it was not, because of our ages. We also could not have done so many if our medical insurance did not cover much of the cost. </p>

<p>I find Suleman’s willingness to undergo so many procedures baffling. I would never have had the fortitude to do IVF again after I had one child. The desire for a second was not strong enough. I can certainly imagine going back multiple times for frozen embryos, that is a snap, but not full cycles with hyperstimulation and egg retrieval. And she did this multiple times soon after giving birth!</p>

<p>The Bill Frist reference brought a smile to my face!</p>

<p>Homeless now? Can the story get any worse?</p>

858

<p>I want to know how old the grandmom is. She looks like she’s at least in her mid 60s.</p>

<p>"On an exclusive interview with the grandmother, Angela Suleman, talks to Early Show co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez, about the media speculation that her daughter Nadya had plastic surgery to resemble Jolie. </p>

<p>“Did Nadya ever say that she admired Jolie or wanted to be like her?” Rodriguez asked. </p>

<p>“No. She never mentions celebrities. She’s really not into that kind of thing. People think that she, you know, admires her. But, I don’t think so,” Suleman said. </p>

<p>“People say that she even had plastic surgery to look like her,” Rodriguez added. </p>

<p>“I don’t think so. No. No, I don’t think she ever did. She gained 130 pounds. So that makes a difference in the facial features, in her wherever, you know, when you gain 130 pounds, goodness, I’d hate (she laughed) this to happen to me. I probably would change a lot, too,” Suleman said. </p>

<p>“Tell me about the sperm donor. How did she meet him?” Rodriguez asked. </p>

<p>“They were just friends. And she’s a very persuasive, well-spoken young woman. And somehow she must have talked him into it,” said Suleman. </p>

<p>“Has she been in contact with him since the babies were born?” Rodriguez asked. </p>

<p>“I’m sure she may have spoken with him,” Suleman said. </p>

<p>According to Suleman, at this point, the sperm donor isn’t a part of Nadya’s other six children’s lives, but she would like to see him be a part of all their lives. …"
[Octuplets</a>’ Grandma On Plastic Surgery Talk, Doesn’t Believe That Mother Of Octuplets Had Plastic Surgery To Look Like Angelina Jolie - CBS News](<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/18/earlyshow/health/main4809034.shtml]Octuplets”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/18/earlyshow/health/main4809034.shtml)</p>

859

<p>NYMomof2: I assumed, based on your screen name, that you have two kids. But no?</p>

860

<p>I do have two sons, Very Happy. S1 came as described after 9 years of infertility, S2 was a surprise, a very late in life pregnancy after 14 years without birth control.</p>