Off-Topic Discussion from "Colleges Crossed Off List or Moved Up After Visiting"

FWIW, Furman just got downgraded on their latest bond offering (most construction projects are financed through the issuance of long-term debt, usually in the form of bonds.) Their Moody’s write-up states in part,

“The downgrade of Furman’s issuer rating to A2 from A1 was largely driven by expectations of continued deficit operations and EBIDA below 10% into fiscal 2026. While the university has outlined plans to improve operations, largely focused on revenue growth, these strategies will take several years to yield results, if successful. Further, although student demand has shown signs of stabilizing, heightened competition including from larger, less expensive public universities will continue to serve as a barrier to sustaining net tuition revenue growth. Risks around operating performance improvement and financial strategy are a governance consideration and a driver of this rating action.”
Moody’s Ratings downgrades Furman University, SC to A2 from A1; outlook revised to stable | Rating Action | Moody’s

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Schools like Davidson don’t have to impress prospective students with their facilities; schools like Furman do.

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And suspiciously similar to what I got when I googled “best sheet colors to hide stains”.

As always it would be nice to get more details, but I looked at Davidson’s latest CDS to see what it reported about need aid.

Overall they had about a $60M budget for need aid. That strikes me as pretty normal for a college like Davidson. Like just to give an example, they are currently tied with Hamilton in the US News rankings (not that this means a lot, but I wanted an independent source for my comparator to avoid cherry-picking) and are a similar size. And Hamilton reported a $65M budget for need aid.

OK, then apparently their average need grant (so not including self-help, just stuff that would come out of their operating budget in the form of reducing net tuition) was about $61K (Hamilton was about $60K, so again pretty normal I would suggest). Of course we don’t know the actual distribution, but this is only among people actually getting need grants, so if some people were getting bigger need grants, others were getting smaller need grants to offset.

That average was then not quite enough to pay for tuition alone (over $68K), and other costs would then add quite a bit more–about $19000 for other direct costs (fees, housing, and dining) alone.

Overall there were 979/1867 getting any form of need aid (about 52%–Hamilton was virtually identical, as you would expect given all the input numbers are almost the same). A few more were getting non-institutional need aid, and at Davidson a few are also getting merit aid, but the budget for that is much smaller. There are also athletic scholarship at Davidson not included in any of this.

But basically, I agree this is largely all pretty standard for colleges like this.

As an observation, true full pay scholarships (covering not just tuition but also other costs of attendance) are not necessarily as common as some people hope/expect. Even full tuition is materially above the average, and generally I would suspect there was a pretty robust distribution of people getting even farther below full tuition (to offset people getting anything between full tuition and full pay grants).

One of the lessons here is people really need to check their NPCs–there are a decent number of middle-middle-class or even upper-middle-class families who seem to assume they will not qualify for any need aid at colleges like Davidson, and they might be pleasantly surprised.

But still, it is true that like half the students (give or take when you adjust for merit and/or athletic scholarships) at these colleges are just full pay. And actually when you realize what those need formulas look like–this is usually families way high up the household income and/or asset percentiles, even among the households with college-bound students.

But that doesn’t mean if you are such a family (meaning the type of family even a generous college would conclude has no need), you necessarily can comfortably afford such a college. It depends on how you have structured your finances and savings, your plans for retirement, possible other kids, whether you are trying to conserve resources, and so on. And even if you COULD comfortably afford it, you might still conclude it isn’t worth it over less expensive options.

But obviously colleges like Davidson are currently not struggling to find enough families like that who are willing to be full pay, and more who do get aid but even so are willing to pay more than what their in-state options likely cost.

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We were also a one car family for over 20 years (also with a >10 yo Sienna). Only got a second car 4 years ago because I started traveling a lot for work. We do not live in a metro area with public transport (as I’d imagine is also your case in AK).

We’ve always set our life up so that we wouldn’t be dependent on cars for daily living and it has paid massive dividends for quality of life and finances. We will do that forever. More than half the time, the one car didn’t even leave the house as we usually walked or biked to work. Our kids were free to walk wherever they needed, including to their jobs.

With 4 drivers, we do have 3 cars now, but 2 of them are $1K old clunkers that are just driven around town on occasion. When something breaks, it doesn’t matter much because we can walk/bike most places. S23 does drive to his summer internship in another town every day so it’s been nice to have more than one car.

Once the kids leave, I expect we’ll go back to being a one-car couple. One car with 4 kids is a huge flex, indeed!

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I think the poster was just throwing stuff against the wall to see what would stick. If you look at the amount of money both Davidson and Furman devote to FA, you’ll find that it closely matches the income and dividends thrown off by their endowments and I’m fairly confident that what isn’t going toward FA is probably servicing their debt which is substantial (northward of $200M compared to $1.4B endowments each).

The sad part about all this is that it is all so ephemeral; ten years from now no one will be talking about Furman’s bright and shiny physical plant; it will be considered, “meh” and some other college will take its turn as the up-and-coming challenger to the old order.

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I was shocked by how many students come from all over the US and the globe, given the challenges of getting to Williams. California has the third most students after MA and NY. There are a surprising number of international students. My daughter has friends from all over CA, NM, OK, London, Japan, AK, IA, and MO. I can’t help but attribute a lot of this to its USNWR ranking.

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I note Williams has been considered a top college among US elites since long before the US News started ranking colleges. On this subject, I always think it is fun to look at this Life article from way back in 1960:

There have been some rising and falling colleges since then, but their version of a top tier included Williams, and in fact Amherst, Carleton, Haverford, Reed, and Swarthmore, along with Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, and Yale, and interestingly Rice.

I think what has happened since then is in part something bigger than US News alone, although it may have contributed. More and more kids are just looking to go to college outside of their home region, or indeed in other countriies. This “nationalization” of colleges is likely in part due to it being easier to get information about colleges, which again the US News likely contributed to, but eventually the Internet really took over. And then of course the Common App era made it a lot easier to apply as well.

Anyway, I am sure Williams gets more students from across the country and internationally than it did in 1960. And I do think the US News has been one of the media outlets playing a role in all that. But I also just wanted to suggest the point that in some sense this is just about more people “finding” Williams, not so much about Williams being any more (or less) high in the eyes of the people who really know US colleges.

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How do people get to Williams if they’re flying in? My husband grew up in the Berkshires, where his mother still lives. Albany’s airport is closest to her, but there are never enough flights, so she flies out of Hartford.

We did the same when we toured schools in Worcester recently – flew into Hartford even though Providence is technically closer because it was cheaper and easier to get flights. And since I was renting a car, I didn’t want to fly into Boston.

I’ve gotta admit that ease of getting to a school is HUGE in D26’s considerations.

(My older one looked briefly at Bucknell – until she figured out that it was impossible to get there from here, lol.)

On another note, good friend of mine went to Williams from 1989 to 1993. He is very proud of the fact that it’s usually ranked #1. I’m not sure when the USNWR rankings started (I know Jeffrey Selingo was an intern at USNWR summer of 1994 – and he’s exactly my age, so it was after his junior year of college. I was a magazine intern in NYC that same summer, so I always feel a connection, lol). Anyhow, I do think people in the know (said friend grew up in NYC) have always known about Williams.

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I know Albany was the airport of choice when my husband went to Williams (class of '92). I think it still might be, as they run a shuttle between the Albany airport and campus.

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It’s difficult to say whether USNews was a bug or a feature when it came to Williams’ rise in popularity. As @NiceUnparticularMan rightly points out, Williams and Amherst were always considered part of a cliquish, clubby sort of version of the Ivy League which itself was just coming into vogue in the years after American GIs started returning from their service in WWII and Korea. With help from the GI Bill, a lot of these places were suddenly on the radar of a sizable portion of the American middle-class. Amherst and Williams benefitted to some extent, but perhaps because of their size, were just as often the butt of good-natured jokes (one notable teen-age movie from 1950s, “Where the Boys Are”, showcased an automobile procession of arrivals to a college weekend with the Amherst contingent represented by a Volkswagen “bug”)

By the time the USNews debuts in the late-eighties, Americans were prepared to be re-introduced to Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Wesleyan etc, but it was at the cost of being separated from the big eastern universities with which they had traditionally identified, but had by then been redefined as primarily places of research rather than as close-knit communities of learning. No doubt a lot of Americans have discovered LACs they never would have heard of as a result.

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Interesting, I lived outside of Philadelphia in the 1980s, and my sense was at that time that many folks thought of Swarthmore as more elite and a refuge of smart wealthy kids than Penn even though Penn is an Ivy League school. Wharton’s reputation locally was top notch, but the vibe of people I knew at the time was that Penn otherwise was more accessible. This would have been in the era when USNews rankings were just starting up I guess. I imagine nationally Penn may have been more well known at the time, but Swarthmore had that old money Main Line swagger in a way that Penn did not among folks I knew in the Philly area.

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That was also my experience of Penn at the time. Certain Ivies, including Penn, Columbia and to a surprising degree - Yale - had unsavory aspects associated with them. People forget that there was a time when the Yale quadrangles were open to the general public.

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Penn in my mind is definitely an institution that has in some sense gained in general regard in recent decades.

I think part of that is Penn was actually relatively well-positioned for some of the shifts of interest in terms of majors, careers, and so on. Like when I was applying to colleges in the late 1980s, there were still plenty of people who did not think much of undergrad business degrees–or possibly even engineering, or anything called “pre-professional”.

But I also think Penn has really become a top-notch “Arts and Sciences” option as well. I’m not sure exactly how much has truly changed, but I do feel like it is maybe talked about more positively in such circles than it used to be.

A final thought I would toss in is that I think in general lots of selective universities and colleges are in notable ways measurably “better” than they were back when I was applying (understanding not everyone is going to actually value any given thing in a college). Many are much wealthier, many are significantly more selective, many have diversified their academic offerings, many have built new labs that are way ahead of what used to count as a competitive lab, and on and on. A rankings mindset sort of imposes a zero-sum mindset, where if one college improves in the rankings some others must fall. But I think these days the quantity of objectively high quality possible options a kid with good numbers can consider is just bigger.

Of course you have to be able to pay for it, but if your numbers are good enough, between need and/or merit you can often find great options. Maybe not names a similar kid would have considered 30-40 years ago, but just as good or indeed better in terms of their actual intrinsic merits.

For sure one of the big picture changes over the last 30-40 years has been a shifting attitude toward colleges with urban locations. Of course there was a legit urban crime wave that peaked sometime in the early 1990s (give or take given the locale), plus also the ongoing legacy of some rather misguided urban development practices. But regardless of the cause, I definitely think in the same era when “Escape from New York” was considered a plausible vision of Manhattan’s future, colleges with urban locations were often being chosen despite, not because of, those locations.

But then urban crime did come way back down, urban development policies at least sometimes got more sensible, and gradually more and more kids saw urban locations as at least neutral, and sometimes as strongly positive.

In my own backyard, this has been particularly relevant to Pitt. Back in that era, the idea a location in the middle of Pittsburgh was a positive was a tough sell. Now, in my circles Pitt being on a pretty short list of colleges of its type that are not located out in some suburb or rural college town is a big selling point in its favor. Quite the turnaround.

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Interesting-- is Worcester airport not functional anymore (I’m too lazy to Google)? I’m a Holy Cross alumna, with my daughter considering the school, and I flew into Worcester for at least the first couple of times during my college years. Then I switched to Boston, but took a shuttle to HC, so no Boston driving.

Worcester Regional Airport is serviced by Delta, jetBlue and American Airlines. Pretty useful for certain markets. Although a lot of kids fly from Logan.

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You can only fly to and from Worcester from a handful of airports, from what I read. Google is telling me the following:

Worcester Regional Airport (ORH) primarily offers flights to and from a few key destinations, including Fort Lauderdale (FLL), John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), and LaGuardia Airport (LGA). JetBlue and American Airlines service JFK, while Delta Air Lines serves LGA. You can also find flights to other destinations via JetBlue, including Orlando (MCO), Fort Lauderdale (FLL), Fort Myers (RSW), Las Vegas (LAS), San Juan (SJU), Santo Domingo (SDQ), Nassau (NAS), and Aguadilla (BQN).

This is actually helpful for us – we’re in Atlanta, so my D26 could fly Delta if she connected through LGA. It would be a relatively easy Uber from the Worcester airport to WPI, which my kid is considering. That might be easier than flying into Logan, taking a bus to the train, then taking train to Worcester, which is how the folks at WPI told us was the best way to arrive.

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It’s funny, my kid is quite intrigued with the idea of Pittsburgh – initially because she was looking at Carnegie Mellon, and she loved all the videos she saw on their website of the city itself. She eventually determined CMU wasn’t right for her, but she isn’t willing to give up the idea of the city, so she’s now looking at Pitt, especially because someone here on CC mentioned in passing a major that might fit her well. (Pitt is bigger than she’s looking for, the marching band doesn’t announce spots until July, and it’s not really the nerdy type of school she’s drawn to. But the city is appealing enough to consider it, apparently!)

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Pitt is a popular choice with our NJ high school. Have heard from positive reviews from parents. One of my friend’s kids is in the Temple marching band. They are playing in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade this year.

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100%. I wont’ say where I went, but we shouted “safety school” to them at games when I was in college.
And it was literally my friends safety school, and close to mine. It was notably less prestigious, at least in my circles, than many schools that are now considered peers, or worse.

I think the R1 status and being able to access lots of research opps is WAY more important to kids now than when I was applying, which also helps Penn, over some other schools, I imagine.

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Absolutely. Undergrads doing real research (as opposed to course labs and such) was basically not a conversation when I was applying.

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