Official Election 2008 thread

<p>In reference to name calling and personal attacks.</p>

<p>I have taken the following from a previous post of mine. </p>

<p>“An old, well known and disreputable political tactic: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Attack the opposition with the most outrageous and damaging charge available.</p></li>
<li><p>When the opposition responds, claim you are being unfairly attacked.</p></li>
<li><p>Try to make the issue that you are being unfairly attacked by the opposition, and that you are the victim. </p></li>
<li><p>As you claim the opposition is attacking you unfairly, make an outrageous and damaging charge and say this charge is the reason the opposition is attacking you.”</p></li>
</ol>

<p>If Poster A makes a statement, or takes a public policy position, that is challenged by Poster B, and Poster A responds that Poster B is calling Post A names, or being rude, you can be fairly assured that Poster A was making a false statement or trying to advance a weak public policy position.</p>

<p>When people make a true statement, and are challenged they respond with credible information that supports their statement. </p>

<p>When people are advancing a strong public policy position, and are challenged they respond with credible information that supports their position.</p>

<p>The above was true on the playgrounds of our youth and is true in the political grounds of today.</p>

<p>Hey…… calling people names is wrong…</p>

<p>asking people to support their statements and positions is at the core of our form of government….nobody gets to say this is the way it’s going to be, because I say so….</p>

<p>Asking someone to “please explain” a claim they have made or a position they have taken is not rude nor is it name calling…in fact asking people to “please explain” is our civic duty…</p>

<p>the ability to ask the powerful as well as the ordinary to “please explain” is what makes America “the last best hope of mankind</p>

<p>POLL FROM PEW RESEARCH CENTER FOR THE PEOPLE & THE PREss</p>

<p>Petraeus’ Proposals Draw Public Approval, But Fail to Lift War Support </p>

<p><a href=“Petraeus’ Proposals Favored, But No Lift in War Support | Pew Research Center”>Petraeus’ Proposals Favored, But No Lift in War Support | Pew Research Center;

<p>

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<p>Hmmmm…I thought TOS prevented any ‘negative’ consequences for individuals on CC?</p>

<p>That’s a very threatening statement, Dad. What’s the point of an election ‘discussion’ if you despise the opposition?</p>

<p>It’s a year away and already this thread is pointless.</p>

<p>TIME, Wednesday, Sep. 19, 2007 By MICHAEL KINSLEY</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>"M, I’ve tried to be careful when I write. Would you please show me where I called you a name?</p>

<p>That said, there is no contradiction between someone offering helpful advice in one a college-related thread and being acerbic in a discussion about Bush and his Iraq policies. If I’m not being “nice,” the so-called president you’re supporting certainly isn’t being “nice” in what he’s doing to the world. You seem to think that you can support him without taking upon yourself any negative consequence. Sorry, the world doesn’t work that way."</p>

<p>TD, I didn’t say that you called me names. Others have, but not you. I was talking about one post that was since amended and a general attitude. I self-identify as a republican, but I’m far from a defender of the Bush administration, as you know. I don’t think another poster has the right to say that there’s no place for me in my party, or yet another that I’m a hypocrite and will believe anything, and still another to say that I’m a Bush enabler. That’s what I’m talking about and the habit of some posters of putting words in my keyboard. I was once attacked for supporting Giuliani, which I’ve never done even at the local level. What I’m saying is pick on me for what I say or support, not a general, across the board “if you’re a republican you must listen to Rush Limbaugh and think Bush hung the moon” kind of thing.</p>

<p>Now that the dog and pony show is over, the truth is coming out about Iraq. </p>

<p><a href=“Military Daily News”>Military Daily News;

<p>From the article:</p>

<p>In another sign of U.S. struggles in Iraq, the target date for putting Iraqi authorities in charge of security in all 18 provinces has slipped yet again, to at least July.</p>

<p>(snip)</p>

<p>It is the second time this year the target date for completing what is known as “Provincial Iraqi Control” has been pushed back. The Pentagon report submitted to Congress on Monday hinted at the possibility of further delays.</p>

<p>“The last thing that supporters of the war want to talk about at this point is the war. They’d far rather talk about this insult to General Petraeus.”</p>

<p>Yup, seems that way to me.</p>

<p>“The constant calls for political candidates to prove their bona fides by condemning or denouncing something somebody else said or to renounce a person’s support or to return her tainted money are a tiresome new tic in American politics.” </p>

<p>I wouldn’t exactly call it “new”. Both sides, it seems to me, are pretty well practiced at the righteous indignation act. Giuliani’s insistence that Hillary Clinton condemn and/or apologize for the MoveOn.org ad, reminds me of the stink Democrats raised over the Swift Boat Ads.</p>

<p>“I have no idea what alleged untruth I spoke”</p>

<pre><code> 1Sokkermom post 70 on 9/17
</code></pre>

<p>Jackson said he did not recall making the racially charged remark</p>

<pre><code> Jesse Jackson From today’s Sun-Times
</code></pre>

<p>^ I have no idea what that totally incoherent post is all about. Nor do I care.</p>

<p>Some posters just never give up.</p>

<p>What does Jesse Jackson have to do with ANYTHING ? :eek:</p>

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</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/143mzktn.asp[/url]”>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/143mzktn.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Just having some fun with the Hillary Fan Club on CC. I can see the debate now, “I actually voted FOR General Petraeus before I voted AGAINST him.” Maybe they can do a split screen thing with Kerry on one side and Hillary on the other.</p>

<p>Nice reporting from the house weekly of the Republican National Committee. Actually, the two votes were about an hour apart. Clinton voted for the silly sense of the Senate resolution condemning attacks on military personel for partisan purposes (including for example, the attacks on Max Clelend, John Kerry, and David Petraeus). The Republicans voted their support for the false partisan attacks on Cleland and Kerry by filibustering that bill. </p>

<p>They passed an amendment a few mintues later condemning the moveon.org ad and Petraeus at the same time that Bush was coordinating with a press conference. Clinton saw the amendment for what it was, a typical Republican stunt, and voted against it. Obama hid in the cloakroom and didn’t vote, even though he was in the Senate.</p>

<p>Republican front-runner Giuliani later took it one step further and said that such advertising should not be allowed. On can only assume that he was suggesting an amendment to the constitution, since the Supreme Court has made clear that political speech is permissable. The Weekly Standard probably didn’t cover this rather significant policy position by the Republican frontrunner.</p>

<p>The Weekly Standard also probably didn’t talk much about the Republicans failure to support our troops by giving them the same time at home as they serve in combat Iraq. As the party that doesn’t care about the troops, the Republicans were looking for a diversionary stunt to conceal their vote defeating the Webb amendment.</p>

<p>So not a word about the administrations’ admission that “insurgent attacks are increasing” to the point that the military is too overstretched to handle them as currently deployed and needs even more civilian contractors?</p>

<p>Not a word about the fact that in the wake of the surge, Iraq is now less ready to govern itself than before and dates for them to do so have been rolled back?</p>

<p>Instead of the issues, we’re still focusing on personalities and meaningless political resolutions? Golf clap, Republicans. I guess we’ll have to take you at your word that your positions on life or death issues in Iraq cannot stand up to scrutiny.</p>

<p>I doubt that Giuliani was suggesting an amendment to the constitution. </p>

<p>I believe that average Americans are not impressed when politicians or their minions attack the integrity of senior military officers who are serving this country. But feel free to continue that strategy – it just shows Hillary’s colors for what they are. </p>

<p>It should be fun to watch how she handles tough questions about her support of the military and moveon.org at the same time – I see another “Stuck in Iraq” moment coming on.</p>

<p>How else would Giuliani make political advertising in the NY Times illegal as he suggested? Any law to do so would be struck down by the Supreme Court. In fact, they just struck down a law limiting advocacy advertising before elections. Giuliani claims to be a “strict constructionist”, right? The Constitution is pretty clear on free speech.</p>

<p>BTW, Senator Clinton has not attacked General Petraeus…or anyone else in the military. </p>

<p>Wait…I take that back. She did bust Peter Pace’s chops pretty hard for being an anti-gay bigot…not to mention getting him fired from his Chairman of Joint Chiefs gig where he served as chief A$$ Kissing Little Chicken---- to Donald Rumsfeld.</p>

<p>BTW, Senator Clinton is interviewed on all five Sunday news shows tomorrow, including Fox News Sunday.</p>

<p>I understand that Chris Wallace is just itching to ask her why her husband didn’t do more to get Bin Laden:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j79y7i10FY[/url]”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j79y7i10FY&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>“Republican front-runner Giuliani later took it one step further and said that such advertising should not be allowed. On can only assume that he was suggesting an amendment to the constitution, since the Supreme Court has made clear that political speech is permissable.”</p>

<p>Truth is the best defense. The A.K.L.C.S. is a known liar and deceiver, as his published letter of 2004 proves. He really didn’t have to give any new testimony; all he had to do is read what he wrote in 2004. He has about as much “integrity” as Colin Powell (and his superior officer – also career military – made clear that he knows it.)</p>

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<p>I would agree with that. I gave the AKLCS the benefit of the doubt when he was the only General who would agree to support the escalation back in January. Then, I watched him make the rounds to all the talk shows before he headed to Iraq, spouting the company line.</p>

<p>It’s instructive that his major TV interview last week was on the house network of the Bush administration – FOX News - who also ran a “Life and Times of General Petraeus” tribute tonight (presumably hosted by that other patriot, Oliver North).</p>

<p>The problem with military leaders like Powell and the A.K.L.C.S. is that, when they lie, as Powell did in 2002 (and earlier in 1991), and Petraeus did in 2004, people die - and more specifically, American soldiers die. It is no different than if Petraeus took a gun to the head of American troops and pulled the trigger. </p>

<p>The factual matter is that he DID “betray us”, and American men and women died as a result.</p>

<p>Video links for Senator Clinton on four of the five Sunday talk shows today. I’ll add the CNN link when I find it. </p>

<p>She took high inside fastballs from the best pitchers in the big league media and went 5 for 5 on extra base hits. An astonishing display of pure political skill – relentlessly staying on message. On the ABC rountable discussion afterwards, Republican NYTIMES columnist and Lehrer New Hour pundit David Brooks all but endorsed her on air.</p>

<p>Hillary on ABC This Week:
<a href=“ABC News Videos - ABC News”>http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3639624&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Hillary on FOX News Sunday:
<a href=“http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?092307/092307_fns_clinton&FNS&Hillary%20Clinton%20on%20’FNS’&acc&Politics&-1&News&1028&&&new[/url]”>http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?092307/092307_fns_clinton&FNS&Hillary%20Clinton%20on%20’FNS’&acc&Politics&-1&News&1028&&&new&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Hillary on NBC Meet the Press:
<a href=“http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=f339eb5f-2d46-47d3-b2f6-c7b6bc5cb9a6&f=00&fg=copy[/url]”>http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=f339eb5f-2d46-47d3-b2f6-c7b6bc5cb9a6&f=00&fg=copy&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Hillary on CBS Face the Nation:
<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3289208n[/url]”>http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3289208n&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;