Ole Miss football team "earned the highest team GPA (2.57) in recorded history"

I don’t think the hockey teams at Yale, Harvard, Cornell, et al have the same gpa as those in the general admissions class. Most of them are two years older than the average freshmen, having either played jr. pro or gone to a post grad year. Do you think they are only practicing/playing/traveling/watching film 20 hours a week? They are not. They travel to Minnesota and N Dakota and Ithica, and that alone can take 8-10 hours just in travel time.

Didn’t you see Love Story? Oliver was always playing hockey.

@Hanna wrote: “At least at Harvard, recruited athletes responding to a Crimson survey reported SAT scores about 200 points lower than the overall average, so the odds are pretty strong that their GPAs are somewhat lower, too. Anecdotally, in my class, they are underrepresented in Phi Beta Kappa.”

As a competing anecdote, there was a combination of recruited athletes and standard students in DS’s senior suite at Princeton. 100% of the athletes graduated with Latin honors. None of the others did. FWIW, I believe all of these students were STEM majors.

Averages are just…averages.

It doesn’t mean that the entire team has a 2.57 GPA…some likely have a 2.8 - 3.X …and some are likely in the danger zone. Does the avg include those who are just became academically ineligible? If so, a couple of failing players who will soon be transferring to CCs for grade-recovery are hurting the avgs as well.

“Didn’t you see Love Story? Oliver was always playing hockey.”

Love Story was a movie, not a documentary, and Harvard admission standards in those days bear little relation to admission standards nowadays. A handshake from the headmaster and a well placed call from papa.

If you ask Al Gore, Love Story was the story of his life right before he invented the internet.

Just look at the rosters for the hockey team at ANY school in the country. The players are older, many have been drafted into the pros already, and many are international students. Are they being considered for admissions on the same terms as any other applicant from Texas or even an international applicant? Are they taking ‘lighter’ courses than the other Harvard and Yale students? Some are and some aren’t. Are they taking harder courses than other hockey players at Minnesota or North Dakota? Maybe.

I think if you compared the hockey team at Harvard to any random 30 students the team gpa and other stats would be lower. I think if you did the same thing with the 105 football players at Ole Miss and any 105 students it would be the same. All are still students, preparing for life, studying, learning. The Harvard player might have kept out a more academically qualified student, but that may not be true at Ole Miss, where some admitted students have lower stats than some football players and there is more room in the student body to admit just one more (or 105 more) students.

Check Snopes. Al Gore never claimed he invented the Internet. Sarah Palin also never said she could see Eussia from her house either.

http://www.catalog.gatech.edu/students/ugrad/core/corea2.php

^^^
So, do the football players get to do the “Survey of Calculus” (is that like business calc?)

It may be…

https://oscar.gatech.edu/pls/bprod/bwckctlg.p_disp_course_detail?cat_term_in=201405&subj_code_in=MATH&crse_numb_in=1712

Whether they are allowed to take “survey of calculus” instead of regular calculus depends on their majors. Those in the architecture, computing, engineering, or science divisions must take regular calculus, while those in other divisions (business and “liberal arts”) may take “survey of calculus”.

http://www.gatech.edu/academics/bachelors-degree-programs lists what majors are in each division.

From the NCAA D1 Manual:

As can be seen by carefully reading the NCAA rules the activities described by both northwesty and soccerguy315 are countable athletic related activities and would be limited to 20 hours per week in season.

This is why head coaches lean so heavily on student leaders. They make sure these other events happen and don’t count toward the 20 hours.

“As can be seen by carefully reading the NCAA rules the activities described by both northwesty and soccerguy315 are countable athletic related activities and would be limited to 20 hours per week in season.”

Sure they would be. And in other news, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.

Swim. You may be correct in your interpretation of the rules. However, note that the “voluntary” practices (sometimes called captains practice) don’t count. Sure, those practices are not mandatory; and for those few who decide that the word “voluntary” carries with it the dictionary definition, they learn that their role on the team is at the end of the bench.

The reality in major sports (and most sports) - including the Ivy League - is that the programs have all learned to tabulate the hours in a way to avoid the limits. For example, training room time, warm-ups, travel time, all workouts not supervised by the coaching staff, etc., do not count towards the limit.

In the off season, S averaged well over 20 hours in his sport; during the season - counting travel time - he easily devoted 50 - 60 hours a week. Those hours all impacted his ability to purely focus on academics. In exchange for that impact, he learned the soft skills not taught in the class room but demanded in the real world. He discovered that many many employers valued those soft skills more than the GPA he sacrificed. (A pretty standard question in interviews is to describe “a failure you have experienced.” I cannot imagine an athlete who could not spend hours telling stories of their failures; what happens after a failure is a true measure of a person. Every athlete has been driven to their knees by their failures; and gotten up in an attempt to compete and win.)

I don’t know if the speculation of several posters that GPAs of Ivy athletes are below the class average is correct; I don’t know the point of the GPA argument; I do know that EVERY teammate of my S (except those who are now playing professionally) got their dream jobs; I do know that they were very coveted in the real world in competing for jobs against non-athletes.

To a college athlete (particularly in D1), virtually every day is spent working on an aspect of their sport; there are no “mental health” days; no “it’s too cold or rainy to get out of bed” days. There is always a better athlete stalking their spot. There is always one more exercise, one more drill, one more film, needed to get better. And, the improvement is always in small minute increments (as opposed to being able to cram a semesters worth of material in a few all nighters). Athletes have played the “long game” in reaching their positions in college - in most cases over a decade of small incremental steps add up to becoming a college athlete. While a few have God-given talent, the overwhelming number of college athletes simply out worked and out desired the other 90%+ of the HS athlete class. The few who were good enough to compete in college (and especially D1) are as elite to their peers as someone who scores a 30 on their ACT.

Employers understand this; employers reward that kind of dedication. In the case of Miss, the team average was just a bit below the general student body - so close, in fact, that getting a “B” instead of a “C” once a year for four years is what makes the difference. Many employers would chose the person who worked a full time, physical job and sacrificed that “B.”

(I won’t even get into the question of what exactly do most college majors teach that translates directly to the real world. But, IMHO, EVERY college athlete develops those skills virtually every day in every way - through their sport.)

Al Gore graduated from college in 1969, 45.5 years ago. A few things have changed since then, even in college hockey…

The time required varies significantly both by sport and by college. In general the sports with the largest earnings potential spend the most hours practicing. One study found that men’s Div I football, basketball, and baseball teams averaged ~40 hours per week, while the overall average of all other men’s teams was ~30 hours per week. When I was on the rowing team at Stanford, I averaged ~25 hours per week. Without including the bus ride to/from practice, it would be closer to 20. The bulk of the practices were 6AM - 9AM, so they did not interfere with scheduling classes and left the vast majority of the day open for other activities. Crew team also was treated as a registered class that counted towards the 180 credits required to graduate. The number of credits for the class did not reflect the number of hours spent, but it did encourage athletes to take a bit lighter schedules.

There were several rewards/reinforcement mechanisms in place, encouraging team members to perform well academically. For example, any quarter an athlete received a 3.5 GPA, he was given a scholar athlete award. When I was preparing for the GRE, I’d study during practice when possible, such as between sets in the weight room. Instead of complaining about this, it made the coach smile. Stanford teams also tweet about academic performance of athletes from time to time, much like Ole Miss, such as the one from yesterday at https://twitter.com/StanfordFball/status/550462448809943040 , which mentions being proud of the team’s high grad rate.

Swim – here’s an excerpt from the decision in the Northwestern union case:

"NCAA rules limit “countable athletically related activities” (CARA) to 20 hours per week from the first regular
season game until the final regular season game (or until the end of the Employer’s Fall quarter in the event it
qualifies for a Bowl game). The CARA total also cannot exceed four hours per day and the players are required to have one day off every week. How ever, the fact that the players devote well over 20 actual hours per week on football
related activities does not violate the NCAA’s CARA limitations since numerous activities such as travel, mandatory training meetings, voluntary weight conditioning or strength training, medical check-ins, training tape review and required attendance at “training table” are not counted by the NCAA.

That decision relates how NW’s trip to play away at Michgian lasted from 8:20 am Friday until 10 pm Saturday night but only counted as 4.5 CARA. Also found that players spent 40-50 hours per week on football during season, 20-25 per week the rest of the year. Including during the summer.

20 hours is, in the words of Big 12 commissioner Bowlsby “a joke.”

Exactly. However one feels about the unionization issues raised in the Northwestern case, it was very clear that even at a school where academics was valued, the athletes were spending far more than 20 hours a week.

I interview boss candidates regularly and this is my favorite question which I immediately follow with: “what did you do when you found out?” and “what will you do differently next time?” Remarkably, I’ve found it a good litmus test for bosses as it quickly identifies responsible people who invariably use “I” words to describe their personal failure instead of “we” words intended to diffuse responsibility.

While I pretty much only hire entry-level* engineers who one of my teams had as interns (I’d estimate we have a 60% conversion rate as a company; for reference: out interns make between 16-30$/hour, I currently have one at $29 and my last one before her was $23), I can’t remember looking at the GPA on resumes at all. If you can talk with me articulately about anything you’ve worked on and you’re clearly quantitative, we’ll talk with you more. Furthermore, if you can ask even a single prescient question and can convince me you have some amount of “technical taste,” we’d probably schedule you for a loop. Finally, we also have what we call the “45 minute” test which is quite simple–would I want to spend another 45 minutes in a room with you at some point in the future? While it’s probably verboten in some OFCCP-ish kind of way, fit does actually matter and, honestly, probably only disadvantages the socially awkward not various groups who are under-represented.

*this is more a matter of convenience than anything insidious. It’s an easy way to build a pipeline out of our state flagship and we have almost no risk in the hire as the internship is a pre-paid insurance policy.

Football players may also spend their off-time playing [EA’s Madden NFL](Madden NFL - EA SPORTS Award Winning Football Franchise - Electronic Arts) video game, which is reportedly such a good simulation that playing it gives actual football players practice in the visual and mental aspects of the game (observing the opposing players for clues of what they are likely to do, for example). Time spent on that presumably does not count toward the NCAA 20 hour per week limit.