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<p>Hey, you made it through to the other side with that one and it worked out well. That’s a lighthouse on the horizon for me.</p>
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<p>LOL! Maybe she should have been admitted, too! But the ability to think differently is greatly prized at colleges. Despite the not inaccurate description of elite LACs and universities as being bastions of liberal, PC thought, profs and other students relish encountering different ideas and experiences–which your S has had in plenty. </p>
<p>I used to leave quite a few classmates open-mouthed because I came to discussions from such different experiences and perspectives. I was amused when my nieces spent time with us and left my Ss open-mouthed with their French perspective on things.</p>
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<p>The word intuition is often used for situations others than human relations; e.g. my S has great math intuition, but he’s not particularly intuitive about people. A person who possesses great empathy may not be a leader. What’s more needed in a nurturing person is sympathy.
Such persons as described by A.S.A.P, are born synthesizers and conciliators. A good book to read is Roger Fisher, Getting to Yes.</p>
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The is the only book from my Stanford MBA curriculum worth keeping. Possible contender: Entrepreneuring, a monograph by Stephen C. Brandt. There were, of course, other worthwhile learning experiences…</p>
<p>But, Fisher’s book is a guide for life, not just business, and was taught that way. You use his stuff every day - with kids, spouse and others.</p>
<p>This thread is priceless! I have been maintaining a thorough resume for my daughter for several years now, as she often needs to pull the information for auditions. I had thought I would just print out the resume for her recommenders, so they would have a clear idea of her out-of-school activities. I can now see many potential pitfalls to that approach and am in the process of changing over to an outline format instead. The key headings will be the “good” words; hopefully this will help the teachers avoid some of the kiss-of-death descriptions. </p>
<p>My daughter recently had a recommendation written (not for college so we were able to see it) that described her as a perfectionist. I shuddered when I saw that; there is some truth to that, but I had visions of the end-readers thinking “anal-retentive, hard-to-work-with student.” Fortunately, the teacher included enough specifics that it overcame the worst of the negative reaction…and my daughter was selected for the event she was applying for. Still, I’m not sure my daughter will be asking that particular teacher for a recommendation for college.</p>
<p>mezzomom:</p>
<p>In some, perfectionism can be delibitating: setting the bar so high that you are bound to fail. For a musician, I’d say perfectionism would be a good quality. It means striving for excellence. “Good enough” won’t get you far in the arts. Perfectionism here goes hand in hand with passion. I agree, though, specifics are best.</p>
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<p>Haha. Or depressing. My S got a rec from his SAfrican English prof. A one liner, it said, “-- is not expected to do very well on his Bursary Exam.” (He got a B on the exam. He was accepted by two of three universities).</p>
<p>Following cheers’s advice I decided to re-state my post here! </p>
<p>Hello everyone,</p>
<p>I am a german teacher (currently teaching english,french and biology) and I am facing a problem which might seem rather unusal to the american boardmembers. But first things first, therfore:</p>
<p>One of my students wants to apply to Harvard. I consider him an exceptional student, very smart, witty, sociable etc. Since german schools don’t have guidance counselors, I as his Leistungskurs teacher (meaning that I spend a lot time with him academically and have the task to prepare him for his Abitur) offered him to fill out his school report.
As I mentioned before - the student himself is not the problem. It’s me. I really don’t think that I with my current knowledge about how to fill out those forms can really do him justice.
I neither know what a GPA is, nor what unweighted/weighted means. I do know that he ranks #1 in his class of 149 (which would make him what you call a “valedictorian”, correct?)
Apart from that I hardly know what to write in my evaluation. What is of special interest to the admissions people? I work at a quite prestigious german school, with a long history (founded in 1633) and even though the student described above would be the first student ever appyling to an american (Ivy-League!) university, our school is known for sending the top-students to the top (german) universities. Should I put a small historic overview into my school report?
I understand that the so-called extracurricular activites are of immense importance to american universities (which is not the case in germany, since it all depends on your grades where you can study). When it comes to his “ECs” I was shocked when he handed me his resume 4 days ago. In my career as a teacher I have never seen a young person that involved. He has already won 5 national english competitions, annually leads a seminar for students from all over the world, has written and directed 2 plays, which also have won many prizes,spend the summer at the Johns Hopkins University (in Baltimore, I think?) summer program (returned with straight As) wants to spend the summer of 2005 in japan, is heavily involved in theater (starred in more than 10 productions,(not on a school level, but is regularly working as an actor), started the school newspaper, student body president, part of the Young Union (a poltiical party for young people) tutors a lot,plays lacrosse — the list just goes on and on.</p>
<p>I hope that you can understand that I feel the need to do this student justice, and I also hope that you can help me answer my questions. I really could need your help. Every single answer will be appreciated.</p>
<p>Sorry for writing that much, but I consider this task quite a challenge. </p>
<p>Thank you so much for your help!</p>
<p>Yours,</p>
<p>Nikola</p>
<p>Marite: Good point…and since the teacher who wrote the rec is one of her music teachers, I’m sure the teacher never thought twice when using the term. I do feel this reinforces the importance of selecting recommenders carefully; if my daughter had been applying for a non-arts event, asking this teacher may have proven to be a mistake, no matter how well she knows my daughter.</p>
<p>Nikola, I will let wiser heads prevail…</p>
<p>I think my D got burned on this when she was applying. She attended a big public HS and the GCs required the kids to answer several questions about themselves, which I am sure they then drew from to write the recs. We had no idea at the time that saying that D was such a dedicated student that she came in early to get extra help from the math teacher, and triumphed with an “A,” was just the wrong thing to say. </p>
<p>I think it may help explain why she was waitlisted at a selective LAC that everyone felt sure she’d get into, including a parent volunteer who had been an adcomm there, who said D’s essay was among the best she’d ever seen!</p>
<p>It worked out in the end - D got in and got $ at her top choice LAC - but it was quite a blow at the time. </p>
<p>This time around, I was more cognizant, thanks to books like A Is For Admission and the one by the Duke ex-adcomm, to know that “dedicated, hard working, etc.” would be the kiss of death. I was uneasy about how exactly to broach it with one of S’s recommenders - a Spanish teacher. In the end I started a conversation with her to thank her for agreeing to write the rec, noting how surprised I was when I read about it. When she expressed surprise too, I offered to make her some photocopies, which I did. I never approached the other recommender. He was an English teacher who was also a GC, and I felt uncomfortable bringing it up. I figured the chances were good that he would have read at least some of those books. Never saw the recs, so I guess I’ll never know for sure.</p>
<p>Dedicated and hardworking might especailly be the kiss of death for girls. Not sure if it is quite the negative for boys…</p>
<p>I understand what all of you are saying on this thread, and my daughter received a wonderful recommendation which emphasizes her passion, curiosity, leadership, love of learning … (all of these are the “right” thing to say, according to the thinking here). The person who wrote this taught my daughter in history and art history, subjects which she loves and excels in. This rec worked well for her, as she was admitted ED with a merit scholarship to her first choice school.<br>
However, along the lines of “wish-it-was-april” 's comments above, why would it have been so terrible for the college to also hear that in another subject, chemistry, which my daughter found very difficult, she spent a tremendous amount of time trying to learn the material, went in for extra help whenever it was availalble, did extra credit work, and ended up with an “A” ? It cannot be denied that trying to master a subject which is difficult and not one’s favorite is an admirable activity for a high school student.
Why should hearing this about a student be the “kiss of death” for admission?
Many students at the very top colleges have never had difficulty with ANY subject in high school, and find it hard to deal with college courses where the work is much harder and understanding it requires much more effort than just sitting through class. I would think that a high school student who demonstrates that he or she has already dealt with this type of situation in which a lot of effort is required to master the material, and who has earned an A in spite of the fact that it was not easy, would be a desirable, rather than undesirable, candidate for college.</p>
<p>Indeed, MotherofTwo. I totally agree with you. But from what the various exposes say, “dedicated and hardworking” are not the descriptors they like to see. If I remember correctly, one of them commented that most if not all of the applicants are dedicated and hard working. They are looking for sudents who, to paraphrase the Duke adcomm - I think it was her - “light up the room.”</p>
<p>Motheroftwo:</p>
<p>Adcoms think that college is a whole level above school. A student who does well in high school by dint of hard work may be overwhelemned and not manage to do well in college; conversely, a student who coasted in high school on the strength of “innate ability” ( pace Larry Summers), may not have the discipline it takes to buckle down and work hard in college. That’s why emphasizing how much a struggle it was for a student to earn the A might not be such a great thing.</p>
<p>“Kiss of death” is really a bit too harsh, though I have also used the terms. And for some kids the words, hard working and dedicated might well be needed if you look at things in their resume and their profile that would make an adcom wonder about that aspect of the kid. As Cheers pointed out, (only a mom of rapscalion boys would appreciate this) those terms could be accolades for many boys. The damage occurs when you have an application that is outstanding, yes, but is very ordinary. Outstanding but very much like thousands of others. And then you have those typical words from the counselor, that just confirms what the adcom is thinking, just another one of those. This is when an infusion of something new and different can give the entire application a whole new light. Certain words are just so over used in recommendations, that they produce a yawn. Unfortunately for most kids, it is rare that an teacher or counselor can come up with a zinger to lift that app to a new level. Fortunately, so it is the case for most applicants, so that the effect is pretty much neutralized. If all counselors and teachers could write these great recs, then they would have to be assessed and discussed, whereas the same tire old remarks are just given a check mark and they neither count against or for the kid. That is what happens most of the time. If there are truly negative remarks, they sink the kid, which is what makes the recs culling factors. Few schools are going to give out those kind of recs–the kid is not likely to get in any where, and what the heck are they then going to do, especially given the number of kids who probably deserve some low marks.</p>
<p>marite and jamimom - your comments make a lot of sense. I think the teacher who wrote the great rec for my daughter is keyed into the kind of thinking talked about in this thread. And, marite, you are very right that a student who does well in h.s. through very hard work would likely not do very well in college. That is why my daughter is not going to study chemisty in college :)</p>
<p>Thank you all who came up with buzzwords for the quality in human relations I was seeking. Our HS’s counselors give parents a great opportunity to help shape the counselor’s rec by asking for a parent letter telling them about our kids. I don’t know if many other schools do this. My letter is due in a couple of weeks, and this thread will certainly help. Marite’s adjectives of synthesizer and conciliator seem on target, and I can think of numerous examples of where his negotiating skills have saved the day.
I don’t know if the rest of you are able to “help” your counselors in this way, but you could always suggest it. Teacher’s recs are valuable to the counselor, but I think parents often have examples that can show the traits which the counselor and teachers may have already identified… Just reading a parent’s recommendation can fill in the gaps for a counselor, and help them know what sets one kid apart from another.</p>
<p>I don’t at all feel qualified to answer Nikola’s post. I hope one of our veterans will step up to the plate as this does sound like an exceptional candidate.</p>
<p>The problem has arisen with the most selective colleges in that the vast majority of candidates are admissable, and there needs to be some culling factors. Once the grades, SATs, course load and selection are all considered primo, how does one pick and choose among thousands of qualified applicants? The top X% which are what the school truly wants, generally stand out, whether it is because the school needs that athletic prowress, or the kid is one of the true scholars that is rarely encountered. There still remains the rest of the class to fill and these are the kids that are truly interchangeable, the ones that the school could fill two or three time over and still have an outstanding class. So the stupidest things become culling factors. I think recs used to be more personal, and more counselors and teachers used to actually check off those boxes until they found that their honesty was being rewarded by their best students being rejected while another school who took the attitude that they wanted to get their kids accepted, were doing far better. In the book, “School of Dreams”, an episode is described where some of the counselors and teachers go to Yale to get a better picture of admissions to that college. Someone asks why a stellar student from the school was not admitted. The reason was a less than perfect check off on some attribute. Now, what do you think you would do if you find out that a 4 out 5 in those little boxes will keep out a kid you think is a great candidate, and you know that schools out there are just filling out straight 5’s for the kids they want admitted? This is what is happening. Why should the highschools act as gatekeepers for their own kids that they want to advocate? So you have the adcoms hungrily looking for reasons not to admit but to deny when they are left with so few spaces to allott. And teachers and counselors become an important part of the culling process. So vanilla neutral is good. It is sometimes the well meaning recommender who deep sixes a kid with unfortunate language and an attempt to be honest. There was a poster who was so upset that the GC for his kid wrote a 1st grade level rec. Well, that rec is not going to keep anyone out becomes the only information it gives is that the GC is an idiot. The problem comes when the rec is lucid enough that the adcom reads it, and there are keywords and info in there that put the app in the “ho hum” or reject stack.</p>
<p>This is a great thread for inteernationals Cur. Indeed, connotations are code words, in fact. </p>
<p>The esteemed deputy head of an elite private American HS once said: “We cannot immediately determine the academic potential of our freshman girls; the majority of them are dedicated and hardworking. By junior year, however, the academic demands overwhelm those who managed freshman year by overworking. By the same token, we cannot determine the social potential of our freshman boys. They are all gawky and immature at 14.”</p>
<p>For a girl in 2005, perfectionism is an offputting attribute; shades of anorexia. it is a generalization, but like all others in the process, it contains kernels of truth. Like the hs headmaster, colleges must see a lower success rate for the nose-to-the-grindstone types. In the same way, they must see lower success rates for slackers-- boys with high SATs and low GPAs. Thus the automatic rejection for those guys.</p>
<p>ps Jamimom/Marite–can you give a few tips to Nicola? I recommended you to her(?)</p>
<p>There are variations of course.</p>