<p>To post 37</p>
<p>You may be attending a school where most students take the 4 year education and enter the workforce, and don’t go on to graduate school. Downfall would be if there is a very small group of students who do research, leading to a percentage of small group likely getting into graduate school, and smaller percentage getting into a Ivy League. I guess it really varies.</p>
<p>(Are most students who intend to do research in college do so freshmen year, or is it more sophmore +… starting research sophmore year possibly couldn’t be too late?)</p>
<p>I haven’t read all these posts, but can provide one more data point. I was engineering undergrad at a second, or third, tier school known mostly for engineering. I got into all the grad schools I applied to
for engineering programs (MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Cornell). My undergrad grades were about 3.7 and my GRE scores in the math and logic sections were high 700s but verbal was only high 500s (I think, its been a long time!). I ended up changing into science/math and basic research, but I felt that my undergrad education was not a problem for getting into schools, or succeeding once there.</p>
<p>Research starting sophomore year is fine. Depending on where you go and what you want to do it might be very hard to impossible to get a research position as a freshman. For example, at my school it is very common for freshman to perform science and engineering reserach. I was unable to find a good econ/business research position at the begining of my sophomore year (have one now for the summer between soph and junior year). I was, however, able to get a computational biology research position for my sophomore year. At some schools and fields there are so many faculty performing research that if you email a bunch some will reply and be willing to take you on as an undergraduate researcher. At other schools and fields research is dependant on imressing a professor in a course first. Lower ranked schools might actually be better for research because some of them have special opportunities and special funding for students in their honors programs. If I wanted to stay at school to research this summer I would have to pay for everything out of pocket and would be lucky to get a stipend. For people in special honors programs they are given a stipend that covers housing.</p>
<p>“Going to an Ivy does not hurt your chances, as you seem to imply. It’s all about what you do with your educational opportunities and how much you impress your professors as an undergraduate.”</p>
<p>Going to an Ivy MAY hurt you (in the humanities) if your language preparation isn’t as good as those coming from elsewhere, if your real, independent research isn’t as strong (there is nothing like Smith’s STRIDES at any of the Ivies), or if your professors don’t know you really well (i.e., you’re not the very top student, which would be far more common at an Ivy than at either a high-grade LAC, or even a second-tier state university.)</p>
<p>In each case, you can see where the faculty received their undergraduate degrees.</p>
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<p>But does this have anything to do with going to an Ivy? You can fail – or succeed – in doing any of the above at any college, Ivy or not.</p>
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If you look at the offerings for languages at Ivies like Princeton, Penn, Harvard, etc. there aren’t too many schools that offer more languages. On top of that, if the language you want to study isn’t offered the school will generally try to find you a tutor so you can further your studies. If a student’s language background isn’t strong enough coming from an Ivy or other top university that might be a fault of the student and not a fault of the school.
I’m not familiar with independent research at other Ivies, but at Penn at student can get credit in most any department for independent research. In addition, there is the CURF which helps undergrads find professors to pursue research with. The research I have performed have been from professors listed by CURF and not professors that have taught me.
At a larger university it is true that it takes more effort to know your professors than just showing up to class. Even though I go to a school 10 times as large as most LACs, each semester I would say half of my professors knew me fairly well. This was through a combination of small classes (30 or less) and me just making an effort to go to office hours or talk to the professors after class. I’m sure I can get a decent rec out of two or three of the professors I’ve had so far. </p>
<p>I honestly do not see how going to an Ivy puts anyone at a disadvantage at applying to grad school.</p>
<p>“But does this have anything to do with going to an Ivy? You can fail – or succeed – in doing any of the above at any college, Ivy or no.”</p>
<p>Yes it does, and in several ways (I thought I already stated them.) You are far less likely to be top of your class at an Ivy, and hence far less likely to get the very top recommendation. That should be rather obvious. In the humanities at least, there really are fewer research opportunities, as those opportunities are reserved for graduate students. (My d. is essentially doing the same research job now at Princeton as a graduate student as she did as a first-year undergraduate at Smith. I was also once a graduate student at Chicago, and a TA, and none of the undergraduate students in the humanities got ANY of the research opportunities that the graduate students monopolized - hey, that’s what we were being paid for, and upon which, many faculty reputations depended.) Finally, and this is anecdotal, but it is clear to me that, in many cases, language training at at least some Ivies simply is not close to the quality or intensiveness available elsewhere. </p>
<p>So, yes, it COULD (doesn’t have to, but could) have something with going to an Ivy.</p>
<p>How is this overcome? Ivy students are smart!!!</p>
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<p>I don’t buy that. I went to the Ivy most famous – at least, once upon a time – for the best foreign language study in the country, and I know that it’s still strong, if not still the best. And my D sat in on a language class at Brown and found it far superior to any of the other language classes she sat in on, including the one at Smith (which was the best of the LACs she tested out). Yes, these are limited examples, but they are as anecdotal as yours.</p>
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<p>The two don’t necessarily go together because you can be a star in your department, or for one professor, without having to be at the top of the class. You can wow your professors in Italian, but not in poly sci. You’ll still get excellent recommendations. In fact, I’ll wager that professors of any university have no idea where their students stand in relation to their peers; all they know is who performed well in their classes.</p>
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<p>Your daughter was an exception at Smith because she was part of a small group of entering students offered STRIDE scholarships to do independent research. Most Smith students do not get the same opportunity their first year. Afterward, they have to actively seek out professors for research opportunities, something I’m not sure is readily available in the humanities once you get past the STRIDE projects.</p>
<p>As Venkat says, there are plenty of independent study opportunities at the Ivies, just as I assume there are elsewhere. </p>
<p>Also, the preference for graduate students for research varies from department to department, and from Ivy to Ivy. Some Ivies have more of the LAC philosophy while others are more heavily into graduate programs. </p>
<p>I don’t think there is anything inherently substandard about an Ivy education, just as I don’t think it’s impossible to go from a non-Ivy to an Ivy grad school.</p>
<p>Dko, I know for a fact that there is research opportunities at Rose AND you will probably have a better chance of getting those opportunities than at a larger school. PLUS, there is Rose Hulman Ventures which gives you the opportunity to work on projects that other companies have sent to Rose and you get paid. </p>
<p>I also, know that students from Rose have gone to MIT and Stanford after they graduate. Check with admissions and they can give you a listing of schools that students have gone to from Rose. </p>
<p>I actually, think you chances are very good of a GREAT graduate school…if the GPA stays. Relax and enjoy!!! You made a really good choice.</p>
<p>First of all, as you know, my d. earned the equivalent of two years of language study at her Ivy (and a “high pass” in the language exam) for her one year at Smith. (In her other language, when they found where she’d been, and held a conversation in the language, they didn’t even bother to test her.) Secondly, the STRIDE (and Kahn Fellowships - which is where students in the humanities go for further research experience after their STRIDES) experiences are quite specifically relevant, and not the exception in this case, as these are precisely the type of students likely to choose Ph.Ds. And certainly, I would be the first to agree that there will be more of these students generally speaking at Ivies, which will (as already noted) actually work against them. Thirdly, we did the research - we really did kick the tires. There were NO research positions at any of the Ivies we looked at that were comparable. NONE. Zero. Zippo. And in all the years I was at Chicago, Zero, Zippo. You really need to understand that professors’ reputations are really on the line here, and that they pay graduate students really, really good money (in my view) to do the research that will expand their reputations. Will there be exceptions? Yes. But they are going to be rare, especially in the humanities. </p>
<p>And are there compensations? Yes. Ivy students tend to be really smart.</p>
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That was absolutely true in my case – I was average in terms of GPA at MIT (and probably rather below average for my department), but, as I was told many times during the interview process, my letters were outstanding. </p>
<p>There’s no need to stand out among one’s school peers to get into a great graduate program, just to stand out among other applicants to the program. My program was perfectly happy to take 10 students from MIT my year in a 70-person cohort.</p>
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I think this is exactly the point.</p>
<p>Getting into graduate school isn’t just about the student, it’s also about the resources available to the student and how the student has used them to excel. Different students will be happiest and most successful at different types of schools.</p>
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In certain fields, it certainly could. I covered this in an earlier post. In my field, a student from Boston U or even Beloit could be better prepared than someone from Dartmouth or Princeton.</p>
<p>Archaeologist, in your field, how many 17 year old high school seniors know that they would want to enter that field with enough certainty to turn down Princeton for Beloit? Are there Master’s programs or postbac programs in your area to help undergrads who don’t have sufficient coursework because they didn’t realize their undergrad institutions lacked proper preparation?</p>
<p>The converse danger of the above is a high school senior knowing that Beloit is better for archaeology, so he turns down Princeton. And then discovers that he really wants to major in math. Oops.</p>
<p>I agree it would be ridiculous for a 17 or 18 year old kid to make a college decision based soley on potential major. Obviously there are exceptions to this–but, as a general rule…I also think Mini is right about Ivies hurting in the grad school app process simply because the competition within the programs is just massive. The same can actually be said, these days, of competitive prep schools, as we know, as an analogy. Is one better off going to the local high school with few ivy acceptances or to choate or exeter? Once upon a time it was HADES all the way because of those relationships, but now it impacts a student’s ability to get into an Ivy, simply because so many are qualified and they can’t take everyone and have a diverse population, which is one of the aims of the post-modern American University experience. Too, even back in the dark ages when I was doing my grad work at Northwestern, the research opportunities for undergrads just didn’t exist. I think schools are more cognizant, now, of thier undergrads NEEDING research, which I don’t think they needed back then, really, but it is still a competition for who will get those spots on level which does not exist elsewhere.</p>
<p>All that said, a student should still go to the best school they can afford if they are not on an engineering path, or really strangely driven and focused in only one area.</p>
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I don’t believe I recommended anything of the kind. Quite the opposite – I usually encourage students to aim for the most selective set of colleges they can get into. My point was simply that Ivies are not always the best places to be prepared for graduate school; it’s no secret that they are not uniformly strong in every field.</p>
<p>I really disagree that competition within top schools is a negative factor for students.</p>
<p>Sure, at a top school, many or most students want to do research. But the resources are there for all students to do research, so there’s limited or no competition for research spots. Everybody wants to do research, and everybody can do research.</p>
<p>And grad schools are pretty uninterested in picking students from diverse backgrounds, unlike undergraduate programs, which prefer not to take all of their students from a handful of high schools. As I mentioned upthread, 10 of the 70 students in my entering PhD class came from MIT (and more were admitted but chose to go elsewhere). There was no attempt to take only the top one or two applicants from a particular school.</p>