<p>The time period factor does come in if you expand the time range beyond 25 years ago…like before the mid-1960’s. From what I read and heard about from older Profs, classmates’ parents/grandparents, and acquaintances who attended college before the mid-1960’s…a college education was mainly the privilege of the scions of wealthy families and/or the academically top 10-15% of all high school students. </p>
<p>Moreover, I’ve heard that many state universities during the same period…particularly those in the Midwest maintained the rigorous reputation while balancing state mandates for lenient/free-admission policies for in-state residents by instituting weedout policies which flunked out around half of all in-state admits within the first two years. The policies mainly targeted those who weren’t willing to put in the requisite effort and/or were woefully unprepared for college-level work.</p>
<p>I’m thinking this was possibly what they were referring to when they said the culture of “college for everyone” is a “new” one.</p>
<p>“While it is nice to bring up a comparison between a very competitive community college program that might enroll 10 percent of its applicants, I am not sure that the comparison between the typical qualifications for Harvard Medical School (such as Yale) and community college credits holds any meaningful value.”</p>
<p>First of all, it was 4%. None of them were “developmental admits”, athletic admits, tuba admits, or senatorial daughter admits. The thread is about admission rates below one-third, and that’s what I’m responding to. And, no, many of the Yale (with its 3.35 average GPA) admits to Harvard Med couldn’t hack it (without retaking courses). It is what it is. I don’t think many of the nursing school admits could get into Harvard Med either (most, because of income and life opportunities, would never have had a chance to find out.) </p>
<p>So, yes, there is elite, and then there is elite. Most of the elites folks are writing about are being admitted to “liberal arts” colleges. Most American students don’t want to be admitted to liberal arts colleges (much as most Yale grads don’t want into the community college nursing program). But I bet there a bunches of programs like this one where admission is well under one-third, but aren’t in the data.</p>
<p>Anyone have any idea what the average liberal arts college graduate (who doesn’t go to graduate school) makes the first year? I’d like to compare it with the two-year community college nurses around here. I have my suspicions.</p>
<p>I don’t know; but it seems to me that if you insist on using income as the only criterion of the value of an education (or even the most important one) that a more relevant comparison would be the income over the 40 or so years after graduation.</p>
<p>Chicago was an anomaly, I think. Even prior to the class of 2011, its average test scores were quite high. One thing that astonished me recently was to read its Jewish population is now under 20%. Back in the 70s, it seemed nearly all my classmates were either Jewish or Roman Catholic. Up to that time, it had been a refuge from anti-semitism for years. In addition, unlike the Ivies or top LACs, it always admitted women.</p>
<p>The “elite” schools did not always have affirmative action or 50% of their classes on need-based aid. They sent out subtle and not so subtle signals that many people were not welcome. Old perceptions linger that “elite” doesn’t just mean “excellent”; it also means “exclusive”, in a not-so-nice way. I suspect these perceptions still suppress a percentage that would otherwise be higher (though there would still be a limit to the number of places, unless demand pushed it up). </p>
<p>What percentage of college students in California, MI, NC, VA, TX or Wisconsin go to the top flagships?</p>
<p>But since you asked, mini - at at least one school in 2007, the average salary of a graduate with a BS in a technical field was roughly a third higher than that of a two-year nursing graduate. </p>
<p>“I suspect these perceptions still suppress a percentage that would otherwise be higher”</p>
<p>Oh, absolutely. I run into this all the time in the Chicago Public Schools. Even at the magnets, a lot of students just don’t see elite private schools as a possibility. Those schools still pay a recruiting price for the many years when they were (virtually) all white, all prep, and all full-pay. It takes a long time to undo 100+ years of history.</p>
<p>San Diego State may be the opposite kind of anomaly. It accepted only 30% of those who applied as freshmen in 2010, but it is not usually thought of as being selective in the same way that Chicago is.</p>
<p>“For the few students who are interested in an out-of-state or selective college, our guidance counselors do an inadequate job of explaining what is required. As a result, most of these few get rejected, and are surprised and disappointed when it happens. The rare student who makes it into a selective college usually has parents who have done a lot of research on their own from middle school onward.”</p>
<p>For guidance counselors to start addressing the requirements for selective colleges in the junior year of high school is too late. students and parents need to know what to do to build the foundation for a competitive application in middle-school. You have to have high enough grades in the right classes and tests to get into honors and ap classes (if they are offered) in the 9th grade - otherwise you take a hit in class rank and strength of schedule.</p>
<p>Mini, I think your point would be better served without the comments made about Yale and Harvard Medical School. I am not certain why you think that readers on this forum are unable to understand the world of difference between the “elite” status of a community college and a school such as Yale. Don’t you think we understand that selectivity and being “elite” relates to more than simple admission rates. </p>
<p>To avoid further confudion, why don’t you post a link to the admission page of the nursing school, and let eveyone understand how one scores well on the 70 points preliminary “cut” and what is expected from the 200 who are asked to pen an essay for the final selection? For the rest, I am pretty certain that most parents who have sent their 9th and 10th graders to the local community school know how to evaluate the difficulty and reputation of the local community colleges, especially since the students who participate in dual enrollment program usually find the CC a source for easy As and less work than their high schools. In general, anyone who can come up with the 50-70 dollars per credit and a pulse can compile a record of grades superior to the Yale ones you seem to deride. The comment about a Yalie not being able to “hack” it at a community college is laughable, unless the entire instruction and testing would be in Klingon!</p>
<p>Nothing of the above serves to demean a specialty program such as your NW Nursing program, In addition, the interest it generated in your community must be directly related to the job promises and its reputation. Fwiw, a nursing program in my home community has similar selectivity and draws candidates on a national scope. However, nobody will confuse such schools with the types of schools we discuss routinely on CC. </p>
<p>Yes, specialty schools have low admissions’ rates, but the comparisons to mainstream programs is an exercise in futility.</p>
<p>I’m reminded of participants on reality shows who say “100,000 people applied! Tougher than getting into Harvard!” True, as far as that goes, but the criteria are a little bit different. :)</p>
<p>Acceptance rates for Musical Theater spots nationally are in the 1-2% range.
These are at non-elite (as defined here) schools, for the most part. At elites like NWU, NYU, CMU, the acceptance rate for MT is much lower than for the school as a whole, as well. The MT community regards different schools and programs as elite, in a different order.
And for years, Julliard had a spectacularly low acceptance rate vs the Ivies, even. Now th eIvies have similar below 10% acceptance rates.</p>
<p>It is a case of way too few spots to accommodate those interested, and possibly qualified.
It is also a reflection of the “career” afterwards: earning power, job openings and the like. A very tough business.
The talk about reality shows made me think of this.</p>
<p>It really speaks to the way branding occurs. HYPS set a standard for an OVERALL excellence, prestige, across its programs. That is a tough thing to overcome and emulate and compete with.
The privileged could afford a liberal arts approach to secondary education- no decision about major or career until after admission. Less privileged would have thought more about career and concentration earlier, I surmise. Pre-professionalism and strength by program could have set the tone in defining elitism, quality, prestige, but it did not.
I do see a re-surgence in this, these days, however.</p>
<p>The criteria are indeed different. One has to be committed to joining a helping profession (which actually eliminates about a quarter of nursing students once they get into the program.) </p>
<p>And if you think that all students with a pulse can acquire a superior record by attending the CC, think again. The vast, overwhelming majority of students who want into the program take their nine pre-reqs at the community college, and then subsequently DON’T get into the program because their grades are too low. I don’t know how it is now, but it was the case that two A-minuses and you were eliminated. (My wife almost didn’t get in because she took one on-line course in which the highest grade was called an "A-A-minus, and admissions first accorded it an A-minus status.) Certainly the mean GPA is WAY below that at most of the prestige schools. I haven’t taught at this community college. I taught for years at the community college of Philadelphia. We sent two or three a year on to Ivy League schools (they were usually in their late 20s), and these students were every bit as good as those I taught at UChicago (actually, honestly, better - the benefits of maturity). But I can tell you that in MY classes, the GPAs were certainly close to a full point lower than they were at Chicago. </p>
<p>Look - I’m not arguing that students there are “academically superior”. That’s not the point. They are more “competitive” for what they are trying to achieve. And yes, the Yalies would have to retake courses. They might do well. I would certainly hope so.</p>
<p>Pardon my ignorance, but in this discussion about the nursing program at a CC, is this a post-graduate program or for those coming out of high school? Because if it’s the former, I thought the initial articles was discussing undergraduate schools, and if it’s the latter, why would you be comparing applicants with Yale grads?–you’d need to compare them with applicants to Yale.</p>
<p>Crossposted with Mini, so I see about the prerequisites, but I still don’t get how it can be compared with undergraduate schools in selectivity.</p>
<p>They are “undergrad” programs, but many students try to enter them after already having earned a B.A. (often at a liberal arts school, and sometimes at prestigious ones with low admission rates.) Students try to use their B.A. courses to meet the pre-req requirements, but often their grades are too low. Admission is based on the GPA in the nine classes, at which point, if one meets those requirements, there is an interview process. At least that’s how it is out here.</p>
<p>My point, Xiggi, is that we are arbitrarily in a system whereby the broader schools dominate the charts.
I can certainly imagine a situation that is the opposite, that the best PROGRAMS would dominate the charts, and that the broader schools would be for the weaker BECAUSE less decided. </p>
<p>All hypothetical, just trying to make the point that the HYP/Ivy thing has been very influential in subtle ways in how we define elite institutions.
The primacy of serving up a broad education is not a given, BUT IT HAS BECOME A TENET OF SUPERIORITY IN THIS COUNTRY.</p>