Osteoporosis anyone?

saw this on a breast cancer forum, not sure why docs don’t discuss K2:

"Something I never see mentioned, which was never mentioned to me even when I saw an orthopedic specialist after breaking my foot, was that Vitamin K2 deficiency along with Vitamin D3 deficiency increases the risk of fractures.

Just look at the following research about it. Vitamin K2 works SYNERGISTICICALLY with Vitamin D3 to move Calcium out of blood vessels and soft tissue spaces into bones. Without enough Vitamin K2 it is very hard to get the Calcium into your bones. Not only that, but Vitamin K2 is important in lowering risks of Atherosclerosis and Coronary Heart Disease. This should be a major health article, but you don’t hear a word about it. Guess it might cut into the pricey, revenue generating big bucks the pharmaceutical industry gets with the Bisphosphonates

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/3/Protecting-Bone-And-Arterial-Health-With-Vitamin-K2/Page-01

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/16/vitamins-d-and-k2-reduce-osteoporosis.aspx

Vitamin K2 is not the same as Vitamin K 1, which is involved in blood clotting. There are a number of studies out of Japan where it is used in combination with Vitamin D3 for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis/osteomalacia. The research is using MK 4 and MK 7 types of Vitamin K2. MK4 is found in animal products like Gouda, Edam and Brie Cheeses. MK 7 is found in Natto, a weird Japanese food made from fermented Soy beans.

No Vitamin K2 supplements unless approved by your doctor if taking Blood Thinners."

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Thanks, compmom. A friend in the phara industry mentioned Vit K when I told her about my osteo diagnosis. Will definitely check into that more!!

Just yesterday, my physical therapist mentioned osteopenia and osteoporosis linked to positional vertigo — lowered bone density also affecting tiny bones in our ears. That hadn’t occurred to me and has convinced me to get more serious about exercising.

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Ugh just got the results of my latest scan and they are worse and I have to see my endocrinologist again. I was hoping that my daily vitamin D and exercise was going to mean
that my tests would be the same. At 60, I feel I am too young to take the various drugs (all of which seem to have issues).

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Tried to PM you @kiddie. PM me if you want to share your values. I find that MD’s are scaring all my friends! There is a finite amount of time for taking each med. I think docs are starting people too early. The risk isn’t as high as they make us think, in early osteoporosis. Look at Keith McCormick’s book on the “Whole Body Approach.”

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I agree. The time limit on meds is a big concern, IMO. My mom had all kinds of issues due to the length of time she was on meds. When my doctor suggested meds, she countered my concerns by saying that a drug holiday is now used. I prefer to wait until I actually have an increased risk of fracture before starting meds. My investigation has led to me feeling less concerned about my current numbers, even if the medical establishment considers them “bad.” Each of us needs to do what we feel is best for ourselves, and that might include drugs. But we may choose not to take them at this time.

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Agree completely about waiting until the meds are really needed. I like Dr. MCCormick’s book because he DID do meds at one point so he covers all points of view.

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I actually haven’t seen the numbers yet. My primary care physician’s office got them before me. I have an appointment in August with the endocrinologist. I saw this endocrinologist for the first time a few years ago and said I would be fine with just exercise and vitamin D. I don’t think she will be pushy about meds (she wasn’t last time). My PCP is very cautious, she follows up on any number out of the ordinary, so I am not surprised by her recommendation.

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Well I had my endocrinologist appointment today - she recommended meds which I declined. I am sure I am not going to make her favorite patient list. She interpreted my numbers for me. My wrist number and spine numbers are worse than my hip and leg bone. I have a 20 % chance of breaking a bone should I fall within the next 10 years. I am only 60 - I can live with that risk. I will continue with vitamin D and yoga and see what other weight bearing exercises I can add.

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@kiddie : Why have you decided not to take meds?

What are your bone density scores?

I have had osteoporosis for many years and tried to take meds, could not tolerate any of them. I had two non-osteoporotic fractures in 2006 of thoracic spine. In April I fractured three lumbar vertebrae (and they also found another thoracic). I made a movement similar to pulling pants on while sitting, that’s all, and three fractures.

I felt desperate enough to go on Tymlos, daily injections, and tried to endure side effects like dizziness, low blood pressure, chest pressure and nausea. I fought hard to take even 1/2 dose. The first time I took a half dose three days in a row I ended up in ambulance/ER/ICU with atrial fibrillation and very fast pulse. While I have had a few such episodes over the years, it has been two years since my last one and they are usually over within an hour. This one went 7 hours. They did an echo to make sure no clot was formed.

Now I am back to square one and afraid to move. I was doing sword tai chi before this happened!

The pain of the fractures was hard to endure. I live alone and couldn’t lift anything, open a window, grocery shop, even wash my face.

My side effects were unusual. I wish I had been able to take Forteo years ago but that also triggered my heart.

If you are 60 and scores are okay, it is good to wait on meds. But don’t wait too long. Also, drugs like Forteo, Tymlos and Evenity don’t work as well if you do biphosphanates or Prolia. None of the docs will tell you that. You can only be on the first two for two years, and Evenity for one, and then have to follow up with Prolia or biphosphanates, which are trouble after 5 so if you do the math, which docs also don’t do, what the heck do you do in 7 years when you have done the max for all drugs?!

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Wow. Those are some significant side effects. I hadn’t heard about those as a possibility.

I’ve taken a variety of meds over the years – I’m on Prolia now – and haven’t had any side effects at all. YMMV.

@VeryHappy just want to emphasize that I have a history of episodes of afib, infrequent but dramatic.

Many people start Tymlos or Forteo off with 1/4 or 1/2 dose, sometimes even alternate days, and work up to full dose every day. Some stay on 1/2 dose for two years. Side effects like headache and dizziness tend to get better after a few weeks.

I react to many meds. I am not a role model for side effects! If you don’t react to Prolia that is a good sign.

I am between a rock and hard place and scared to try Evenity but these fractures are motivating and I am going to try. Good luck to you!

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I don’t feel that my numbers are bad enough to warrant taking drugs at this point. I did my own Frax online and got 15% (even lower than the doctor’s number). The side effects are not insignificant for these drugs and they all have time limitations. What do you do at 65 after 5 years of drugs when you are required to take a drug vacation and your bone density now drops like a rock? I will continue with lifestyle treatment - yoga, weight bearing exercises, vitamin D supplements, eating plenty of calcium, etc.

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I think putting off meds as long as you can is wise. I waited too long though, due to intense reactions to biphosphanates, Forteo (and now Tymlos).

Keith McCormick’s book “The Whole Body Approach to Osteoporosis” is very helpful for a non-drug approach. I traveled to meet with him in person but he also does virtual appointments.

That said, when he had fractures himself, he did Forteo, followed by a brief Reclast treatment to consolidate gains.

There is a big drop after Prolia, but I don’t think there is after biphosphanates. Density goes back to baseline after the two years on Forteo or Tymlos without Prolia or biphosphanates. II waited 15 years after diagnosis and made one stupid movement and now cannot lift orange juice.

The math doesn’t add up for younger women (60’s) since two years on Forteo or Tymlos, followed by 5 years on biphosphanates, only equals 7 years so then what?

Waiting makes sense. And I cannot believe how many friends I have who barely have osteoporosis in one place, the other bones are fine, and they are being given meds.

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I went to a program by a physical therapist called strong steps, where he discussed preventing falls. I signed up for his free balance assessment (have an appointment in a couple of weeks). PT do treat Osteoporosis by teaching weight bearing exercises. Has anybody tried PT, any success with that?

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For those of us who have osteoporotic DEXA scores but no history of fractures and no other signficant risk factors – there are two options for testing that can shed more light on bone strength & quality. DEXA provides info about bone mineral density but not about internal bone structure and quality.

One option is to get a TBS (trabecular bone score) — this is done with specialized software tied to the DEXA machine, so it doesn’t require a further or additional scan. It just requires a facility that has the software installed and can offer the option of the additonal report. But these facilities are few and far between. However, Medicare will start paying for TBS reports in 2022, so that might make the test more widely available. (The software is pricey, so facilities need to know they will get a return on their investment).

Getting a TBS will provide a lot more insight on what the DEXA score means in terms of fracture risk, especially for small-boned or petite women, who tend to have lower bone mineral values.

The other development is an Echolight REMS – which is an ultrasound system that may be able to provide a more reliable and replicable bone density measurement, with a smaller margin of error; and since it is ultrasound and does not expose the patient to any radiation, it can be offered more frequently. (So a person might be able to get a scan ever 6 months rather than spaced 2 years apart, for example). The Echolight also can measure the bone quality and provides a fracture risk assessment based on the combination of bone density & quality. This new technology, which has been approved by the FDA – but not yet covered by Medicare or other insurance types. So also not yet widely available – there currently are about 5 locations in the US. But out of pocket cost for patients is in the range of $150-$250 or so, so not cost-prohibitive either.

I personally do not plan to take any meds unless & until I can receive one or both of these tests. In the meantime, I’ll keep on with my gym-going & home exercising.

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Thanks these are interesting new developments

Very helpful. Thanks.

Great information! Thanks for posting that! On another note, I am really, really bad at taking supplements, but I am trying to take some collagen periodically. Fortibone (made by Gelita) has been shown to increase bone density in post menopausal women. I would think that any type of collagen supplement would do, but this is the one used in the research study.

Quoting from the conclusions abstract: Conclusions: These data demonstrate that the intake of SCP increased BMD in postmenopausal women with primary, age-related reduction of BMD. In addition, SCP supplementation was associated with a favorable shift in bone markers, indicating increased bone formation and reduced bone degradation.