<p>“(But not any of the schools except HYP - the general public has never heard of U of Penn or Dartmouth or Brown.)”</p>
<p>so true. my mom doesnt believe me when i tell her that Duke is not part of the ivy league, same with stanford…</p>
<p>I do think it’s kind of ironic the way you construct your post, golubb. You seem to imply that any more near-Ivies that people can name belong on your list of “underrated” schools (on this board), but in doing this, you’re assuming that the schools are in fact underrated by sheer virtue of their being Ivies/near-Ivies, which is exactly why so many other people are arguing that they’re OVERrated. </p>
<p>I think it depends on how you view this. My main belief is that many excellent schools are underrated by sheer virtue of NOT being Ivies or big-name schools. You can choose to view these schools as underrated, or you can choose to view the Ivies as overrated. Either way, both of these perspectives are essentially the same. The fact that some are calling the Ivies overrated does not, in my mind, at all imply that they’re not excellent schools. It simply means that they’re held in a certain esteemed category–by virtue of their name, alone–that should not be exclusively theirs. </p>
<p>I also tend to trust what people say on this board, because while everyone does have their biases, this is clear, but most posters are very well-researched in the most current college trends. Most of us know applicants, students, and/or graduates of the schools to which we refer, or can rely on hearsay from people who do. So while the general public may hold certain schools in much higher esteem than that which they’re given on this board, lack of comparitive knowledge may at least partially account for this.</p>
<p>"Thus, the following are underrated on this board…</p>
<h2>Ivies </h2>
<p>HYPCCDBP</p>
<h2>Near-Ivies</h2>
<p>MIT, Stanford, Duke, Caltech, Berkeley etc…"</p>
<p>The reason that I mentioned that these are underated is that going to these schools can change lives (literally), and many people on this board seem to overlook that fact when they say that Ivies or near-Ivies are OVERrated.</p>
<p>
There’s a book about colleges that change lives, and the Ivies aren’t mentioned, But that doesn’t mean they don’t. It’s just the authors view.</p>
<p>How do the “lesser five” Ivies change lives? A lot of employers have not heard of Brown, Dartmouth, U. of Pennsylvania (is that a state school?), Cornell, or Columbia anymore than they’ve heard of Rice, Duke, Berkeley, UVa, etc.</p>
<p>HYP, MIT, and Stanford have the name recognition to change someone’s life if they’re not talented enough to make a difference for themselves. The Lesser Ivies do not have name recognition. People have heard of the “Ivy League”, but they haven’t heard of any of the schools except Harvard, Princeton, and Yale. Many think that Stanford is one of them, but very few know that the University of Pennsylvania is in the Ivy League.</p>
<p>But many people could tell you every Ivy, believe me.</p>
<p>Wow, you obviously haven’t read the book or even remotely heard about it. The point is that name recognition doesn’t change lives like people seem to think it does. Making more money by going to Harvard isn’t an example of changing someone’s life. The author talks about positive, inner change. With that said, I’m sure all of the Ivies do that regardless of how well known you think they are because of the quality of the people that attend these schools. And I would take name recognition of IVY League over Rice, Duke, and UVA any day.</p>
<p>I think that outside the self-selected bubble of this board, you would be surprised how few people could name even five Ivies. “Harvard, Yale…umm, Princeton…Stanford, I guess…is NYU an Ivy?”</p>
<p>Mensa, not out in the general populace. Many high school students can name every Ivy since they come to this site and see them, but not many employers can do the same.</p>
<p>uc_benz, that’s just the point. When you go to the “lesser five”, you don’t get any name recognition. Your degree says Brown University or University of Pennsylvania. The term “Ivy League” is nowhere to be found on your resume, and the person reading it usually doesn’t know that Brown or the U of Penn. is in the Ivy League. There is no name recognition in going to a Lesser Five ivy.</p>
<p>The people who actually revere the Ivy League are the people who can’t name any of them but HYP. People sophisticated enough to know that the U. of Penn. is in the Ivy League are, generally, too sophisticated to consider it better than Rice, Duke, Berkeley, UVa, etc.</p>
<p>That is exactly right Breeze. People who know universities well enough to name the 8 Ivy League schools usually know universities in general and will not be more impressed by Penn or Brown than they would be by Chicago or Duke.</p>
<p>Mensa, uc_benz and breeze, the name recognition depends on who’s recognizing the name. But as an almost universal rule of thumb regarding Penn is that the vast majority of people don’t know the difference between Penn and Penn State. Nor do they care, unless the Penn student goes to Wharton and wants to be an I-banker. Most Penn students will tell you that they spend most of their time explaining their school as saying it’s not the one where Joe Paterno is the foootball coach.</p>
<p>unless the Penn student goes to Wharton and wants to be an I-banker. </p>
<p>I Keep seeing I-banker. Is this internet-banking?</p>
<p>One of my favorite quotes from the cc library of knowledge:</p>
<p>Most Underrrated school: The one I (or my children) go to.</p>
<p>Most Overrrated School: Any other school that I (or my children) may or may not have gotten accepted to that is more highly ranked by USNews.</p>
<p>Mensa: I-banker = Investment banker. The people who help companies launch IPOs, mergers, and other financial transactions. Has surprisingly little to do with either investment management (such as a mutual fund) or the functions of a commercial bank, so definitely not to be confused with a retail stockbroker or a banker.</p>
<p>Well there are definitely similarities to stock brokerage. There are many positions in investment banking (such as prop trading) that a person will use the firm’s assets and/or other sources assets, and they will buy&sell securities with the assets.</p>
<p>“How do the “lesser five” Ivies change lives? A lot of employers have not heard of Brown, Dartmouth, U. of Pennsylvania (is that a state school?), Cornell, or Columbia anymore than they’ve heard of Rice, Duke, Berkeley, UVa, etc.”</p>
<p>Well, the term “Ivies” is very well known! Maybe some near-Ivies like MIT/Stanford are just as well known (or even better) than some of the Ivies, but all in all the Ivies and near-Ivies are world-famous! If the employer is educated, he’ll certainly known about these schools.</p>
<p>Also, most of the world knows Cornell, Berkeley and UCLA…I do agree that UPenn, Dart and Brown may not have extensive recognition, but netiher do Caltech, Northwestern, Georgetown or WUSTL. It doesn’t stop them from being among the best shools. Enuf people know of them to make them famous in some sense of the word.</p>
<p>Prop trading is not the same as investment banking. Two totally different fields. Working for an investment bank does not make one’s occupation an investment banker (think of human resources, traders, sales-traders, operations, asset management, private equity…)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Exactly. The near-Ivies (Rice, Duke, UVa, Berkeley) are world-famous and so are Brown, U. of Penn., Dartmouth, etc. But the Ivies I just named are no more world-famous than the near-Ivies I just named. HYP and MIT/Stanford are the only schools with universal recognition (not that it generally even helps much to get a specific job or acceptance letter compared to experience or research).</p>
<p>The ivy league started out as nothing more than a sports conference, and has taken on a different meaning over the years. Since words are just tools we use to express meaning, these words can take on new meanings as the times change. A long time ago, the word “cool” was used to express feelings of coldness and frigid temperatures. Nowadays, the word “cool” can express feelings of “laidbackness” and being hip. By the same token, the phrase “ivy league” used to only represent a football conference between 10 schools in the Northeast: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Army, Navy, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Penn, and Cornell. Soon after, Army and Navy dropped out and the ivy league came to represent 8 colleges. Then after a while, people forgot about the athletic conference and began to equate the term “ivy” with prestige because HYP were so great. Now, as times have changed, the term ivy league has come to stand for yet another new meaning. Since people can’t name all the 8 “official” ivies, the term ivy-league has come to represent the most uber-prestigious colleges in the country. Unfortunately, the Lesser Five (cornell, penn, dartmouth, brown, and columbia) are not considered to be the most uber-prestigious schools in America, and therefore have lost their ivy-league status in the eyes of the layman. I don’t know if you guys have noticed this or not, but the language of the majority is what determines what goes in our dictionaries. If everybody starts saying “cool” in order to represent the quality of being awesome and hip, then the dictionaries are going to reflect that change even though the “official” definition of cool is “low temperature.” If everybody starts saying that Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Princeton, and MIT are the ivy leagues, then the Lesser Five can no longer be considered ivy-material. Seeing as how more people believe that HYPSM are the true ivy-leagues, and cannot even name the Lesser Five, I think the definition of “ivy league” has unofficially changed. It’s only a matter of time before the unofficial change becomes official. </p>
<p>In conclusion, this is what most people consider to be the true ivy-leagues.</p>
<p>Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Princeton, and MIT</p>
<p>Any other definition will soon be antiquated. You folks should remember that the ivy-league used to have 10 members. Soon the Lesser Five will have the same fate as Army and Navy. As people’s perceptions change, the words we use to describe those perceptions will take on new meanings. Language is far from concrete.</p>
<p>“Any other definition will soon be antiquated. You folks should remember that the ivy-league used to have 10 members. Soon the Lesser Five will have the same fate as Army and Navy. As people’s perceptions change, the words we use to describe those perceptions will take on new meanings.”</p>
<p>-This is ridiculous!</p>