Overview of patent and intellectual property law

Graduate School Law School
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<p>Texan: As Cellardweller said, industrial experience is not necesssarily required for going into patent law. However, it can enhance a candidate’s qualifications. Nonethless, you could go to law school right after college, if you wish, and can afford it. So you could study for the LSAT at this time if you’re reasonably sure that patent law is what you wish to into.</p>

<p>However, I’m a bit dubious about the suggestion that you could become a patent agent and immediately get work. Studying for the USPTO exam involves learning patent law, rules and procedures, and drafting patent claims. It only provides a limited scope of understanding how to properly draft (let alone prosecute) an entire patent application. So I question whether anyone would hire you to draft patent applications if they knew you had no experience. On the third hand, you might be able to get work drafting portions of patent applications.</p>

<p>Or on the fourth hand you might look into whether you could get a job in a law firm as a technical advisor or patent engineer, learning to draft portions of patent applications before going to law school (or while going at night).</p>

222

<p>dadofsam, if I may be so inclined to ask your professional opinion on the topic of patent law and forensic science…</p>

<p>I am currently an undergraduate student in chemical engineering who is planning on getting a Master’s degree before attending law school. I am fascinated with what I know of patent lawyers’ lives and work more than anything else I have been presented with – by far. I keep in contact with a few IP attorney’s in the NW Arkansas area as well as some faculty at the University of Arkansas who work with attorneys as expert witnesses, and I have heard several tales of the lives of attorneys. </p>

<p>Anyway, one of my closest “mentors” (he is a friend and a professor of mine) tells me how powerful a M.S. in Biotechnology, Biochemistry, etc., will be for me in my future career as a patent lawyer. Well, I agree with him - but I am only moderately interested in biotechnology. I am much more interested in materials science, and specifically very interested in forensic engineering. This finally brings me to the issue at hand: what patent attorneys have you ever come across, in all your years of professional experience, who have had an M.S. Forensic Science? My assumption is that it has been few-to-none. But if it were anything more than an assumption, I wouldn’t be posting this.</p>

<p>I am concerned that the path I am most interested in short-term may not be the best path for what I am most interested in long-term. Do you have any advice?</p>

<p>-Cody</p>

223

<p>I am a chemical engineering Junior who just last semester started buckling down and making all A’s in my classes. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize my own potential the first two years, and as a result I am successfully bringing up my 2.8 GPA to a 3.4 by the time a graduate because I started making straight A’s in classes ten times as hard as the ones I made B’s and C’s in as a Freshman and Sophomore.</p>

<p>Anyway, I know with my new work ethic – no lie, it is primarily because of my passion to become a successful patent attorney with the help of getting into a good law school (similar paths it seems I am coincidentally on with the person above me) – I will do great on my LSAT; but my 3.4 GPA will not stop nagging me about how much better it could be with this new work ethic. Here is my plan of attack:</p>

<p>Because I am a good writer and have already taken several advanced composition courses out of interest and made A’s in them – even back when my work ethic was terrible – I am debating getting a dual Bachelor’s Degree in Chemical Engineering and English. The idea here is the if I plan it to where I get both degrees at the same time by pushing back engineering courses and focusing on English courses, then I will have both degree GPA’s counted toward my law school considerations. Is this true? (I have heard it is true on College Confidential forums.) Thus, with most likely a 4.0 in 2 years or so worth of English courses with my 3.4 in Chemical Engineering, I think my overall GPA and my degrees will make this plan degree significantly worth it. But wait, there’s more…</p>

<p>As an added bonus, I believe the English Bachelor’s will really develop my ability to write – and to write well. With so much extra stress on not only getting into a good law school but getting onto the Law Review at that school, I think that this extra English Bachelor’s will come back to assist me in more ways than one. </p>

<p>So, as you can see, this is becoming an extremely tempting option for me, and I am completely willing to work with the law school system and make up for past mistakes by getting this English degree.</p>

<p>Any thoughts, guys?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

224

<p>Labarrister: I have never met a patent attorney with that specific background, and my belief is that the likelihood is very low that any employers, hiring attorneys or HR managers have met one. That means that you will have to explain how such an education would make you at least as suitable for an entry-level position as a patent attorney as an engineer or chemist. It depends on what hard science education is involved in that degree. If it involves a lot of materials science, that could be good.</p>

<p>LawusA: sorry, but I don’t have the knowledge to offer advice about law school admissions. You should repost this question as a new topic on the law school board.</p>

225

<p>LaBarrister: I became quite interested in you proposed inquiries of forensic science and the potential to use an MS in Forensic Science to advance your path toward becoming a patent attorney. I too am walking down a similar path, myself. Please, allow me to share with you what I have learned.</p>

<p>Forensic science is mainly offered through a MS or PhD program and, as with most graduate programs with broad titles, has a lot of area for specialization and interest targeting. It seems that if you are truly so interested in forensic science, you should pursue that interest. It seems that you may find happiness yet outside of the realm of patent law or even law in general.</p>

<p>I do not know much about the legal job market now, much less that of the future, so I cannot say anything meaningful here. But, my opinion is that material science and biotechnological science advanced degrees can potentially prove useful to the repertoire of the patent attorney, especially if the attorney is passionate about either subject. As for forensic science/engineering, I found that several programs delve into both material science and biotechnology while focusing on forensic work. But I saw very little – actually, none – evidence of a forensic scientist/engineer having prospects in the patent/legal job market. Maybe there is some sort of overlap barrier between those doing forensic/expert testimony and those practicing law. Perhaps, dadofsam could elaborate here for the sake of both of us? I am interested to see this conversation develop.</p>

<p>I hope no one minded my input. I wish the best of luck to you and your endeavors.</p>

226

<p>It’s unlikely that a degree in forensic science will lead to a position as a patent attorney in biotechnology. Many people seeking those positions have a Ph.D. and even postdoc and/or industrial experience in that field and your education would not be competitive. As for materials science, it would depend on how many courses are taken in this field, and which ones. And it also depend on the level of education of others seeking similar positions.</p>

227

<p>I want to be frank - my friend graduated with a ChemE degree in the late 90’s. He decided to go to law school to postpone making a career choice for three more years. Well, it was sort of made for him, then. Now he works in IP Law in North Carolina and Arkansas. He started off his career in litigation doing discovery work and then he hung out his own shingle starting with little experience. Finally, he is an associate at a larger law firm in North Carolina who specialize in IP Law using the cloud.</p>

<p>His salary after taxes is $32,000.00 per year. This is simply scary. Based on the things I have mentioned above, do you think any of his decisions early on in his career have been direct causes for his lower salary?</p>

<p>Thank you for your reply in advance.</p>

228

<p>I’m sorry, but he actually graduated in 1990 - BSChE - and 1992 - JD.</p>

229

<p>Sorry, but this story doesn’t make any sense. There may be other factors that resulted in your friend’s situation. You should ask him or her about that; also whether he/she earned considerably more in previous years.</p>

230

<p>I have a Bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering and wish to become a patent attorney in Kansas City. I will most likely go to a local state college. I am curious as to what the job outlook for patent attorney is. I want to give myself the best chance possible to get hired, but I am unsure how to do that. I spoke with one patent attorney who went to a tier 3 law school, and earned an internship that turned into a job making six figures. I was not sure how likely that sort of thing was as he had no prior experience. I am not sure if I should try and work as an electrical engineer for a couple of years or what the best route would be for me to get where I want. I would hate to go to law school and not be able to find a job.</p>

<p>Thank You</p>

231

<p>AspiringPatent,</p>

<p>I have been told by IP Lawyers that getting experience as a patent examiner at the USPTO prior to going to law school can help with job prospects after graduation. I am trying to decide whether I will to this after getting my BS in Chemical Engineering or work as a chemical engineer making 65,000 + per year and paying off undergraduate school loans. I do not know what the salary is for a patent agent, but I am thinking that I want industrial engineering experience while I can get it before law. I want to put that engineering degree to good use while I can and gain some valuable experience that not all patent attorneys have! That is my 0.02, but I thought I would chime in nonetheless.</p>

<p>Have you thought about taking the Patent Bar and working as a patent agent with the USPTO before going to law school?</p>

232

<p>Ideally I would like to get all of my school work out of the way first, but I have considered working for the USPTO. I also have a good job lined up same as you, but not sure if I want to head that direction or not. What law schools are you aiming for and have you taken the LSAT? I really do not want to get Masters in EE but I am not sure what technical abilities patent companies will be looking for. Does anyone know how easy or difficult it is to find a job as a patent attorney? What percent of people graduating with patent law actually find jobs in the field?</p>

233

<p>The most doors are open to those in patent law who have advanced degrees.</p>

234

<p>I am getting two undergraduate degrees and plan on going into the labor force, working either as an engineer and getting my PE license or working as a patent agent. I do not plan on going to graduate school before law school, but I am not ruling it out or saying it is a bad idea.</p>

<p>I’m two years into a six-year course whereupon completion I will have a bachelors in chemical engineering and a bachelors in English. I am graduating in 2016. I have not taken the LSAT, yet.</p>

235

<p>I’m not saying you won’t find a job in patent law without an advanced degree, but the most competition, by far, is for those with advanced degrees.</p>

236

<p>That makes sense. I am not looking to work in New York or California so I would assume it is less competitive elsewhere. Also I hear that Electrical Engineers have a little more leniency and can get away with only a bachelors as opposed to some other disciplines. Do you think the high reputation schools are worth the cost? I feel like if I get accepted somewhere great it would be a shame to turn it down, but on the other hand it is a huge debt to rack up when I could go somewhere else for half the price and potentially end up at the same job.</p>

237

<p>AspiringPatent: You raise a lot of questions (directly and indirectly) but I’ll still try to answer the. Cartera45 and others who know the facts may have more to add, for the guidance of others besides yourself (though many of these questions have been answered in earlier posts)</p>

<p>Can one go to a tier 3 law school and wind up with a six-figure job in patent law? Sometimes. A tier 3 law school may have a very good local reputation and/or alumni who are partners in local IP or other law firms. A six-figure salary is what usually be offered a new associate in a leading IP or general law firm. But those six figures are smaller than they were several years ago.</p>

<p>Are there opportunities for new IP attorneys in Kansas City? You’re in a better position than I to answer that, but if the Midwest is important to you, there are more opportunities in cities with a bigger industrial base such as Chicago, Minneapolis and St. Louis.</p>

<p>Should you start by working at the USPTO? Could be a good idea; apply for a job as a patent examiner and see (note that they will be opening their first satellite office in Detroit). And you could do as many others - work at the USPTO and attend law school at night. </p>

<p>A bachelor’s degree in engineering often is enough to satisfy technical requirements for an entry-level job in IP, but in this economy a lot of people are going back to graduate school. You may eventually find yourself competing with applicants with more advanced degrees. But a few years oif work experience could cancel out that disadvantage.</p>

238

<p>Thank you dadofsam. I really appreciate your advice. I would love to hear any other advice you might have. My goal is to attend Stanford Law. It will just depend on how well the LSAT goes. Otherwise, I will settle for a local school.</p>

<p>Oh and also I am going to try Georgetown and see what happens.</p>

239

<p>There is really no benefit in attending a top tier law school if you want to get into patent law. It is your TECHNICAL expertise that matters not your legal training. Patent law firms are nearly always speciality law firms. Big firms may have an IP practice but typically it is focused on litigation not patent law. Don’t waste your money on accruing a lot of debt at a major law school, it just won’t pay. I have personally never met a patent attorney with a degree from Harvard or Stanford. They may exist but I would bet they are mostly involved in litigation working for BIGLAW. On the other hand, I have met a number of patent lawyers with engineering and science degrees from leading research universities. You have to talk the talk to be credible!</p>

<p>Experience does matter and most patent attorneys I know have some industry experience either working in a lab in the biotechnology field or in R&D for some major corporation. Many get their degrees at night while working at their regular jobs during the day. </p>

<p>How much can you make as a patent attorney? Right now, I would say quite a lot and I don’t see the picture getting worse for a long time. If anything most indicators are very favorable:</p>

<p>First, realize there a very few patent attorneys in a vast sea of lawyers. Less than 20,000 for the entire US out of 1.2 million are registered with the USPTO. Most IP lawyers are actually not patent attorneys but just handle trademarks and licensing which pays much less and does not require passing the patent bar. 99% of law school graduates are just not technically qualified to become patent attorneys. </p>

<p>Second, patents is the main asset of most fast growing as well as established tech firms and unless companies stop innovating, they will need to continue protecting their inventions. Even companies in fields that did not emphasize patents a few years ago such as software are scrambling to build patent portfolios. Facebook just spent a billion dollars buying fewer than 1,000 patents from Microsoft. That is more than a million dollars per patent! So, spending $20,000, $50,000 or even $100,000 for a patent is a worthwhile investment. </p>

<p>Third, patent work is not limited to just a few areas of the country. I work with companies in many parts of the country and not all are in hotbeds of technology such as Silicon Valley or Boston. I don’t know of any patent attorney, in small or big firm who charges less than $300/hr and most charge way more. </p>

<p>Fourth, patent law is nice recurring business not a one time deal. A typical patent will take 40-50 hours of work (in biotechnology much more!) so that is $12K to $15K just for the initial prosecution not counting filing fees. If you include follow on prosecution fees, $30K is a reasonable expected income per patent. Also, a single invention often requires multiple patents: you may have a apparatus patent, a method patent and several material patents. In the end you may easily charge over $100K to protect a single invention. Also, companies generally don’t have a single invention, but a continuous flow of inventions. </p>

<p>Right now, with the heavy demand and limited supply, most patent law firms are billing out every working hour of their associates and partners. Nobody is stting on their thumbs waiting for business. </p>

<p>The hardest part is probably getting initial traction with clients, especially if you are on your own. But that is not different from many other professions including physicians. Building a practice takes time and effort. If you have network of contacts acquired during your experience in industry, then your work is a lot easier. You can also hook up with a bigger law firm that does not handle patents but has clients who need the service. I get half my referrals that way. You can also work for a boutique patent law firm for a few years and then go out on your own. Most of the time if you are any good, your clients will follow you. Frankly, at this point in time, with the tech sector really picking up, getting customers is about as hard as shooting fish in a barrel! </p>

<p>If you stick to perennial IP fields such as ChemE, EE, medical devices (mostly MechE), biotech and now software, you simply can’t go wrong. Of these biotech is probably the most cyclical field and the only ones that demands a PhD.</p>

240

<p>That was extremely helpful. You answered almost every question I have ever had about patent law. I have read and heard varying opinions on whether the law degree or technical degree is more important. One patent attorney told me that you just need a very basic understanding of what is going on, and that it is your law skills that truly help you prosecute a patent. One patent attorney even went as far to say that he believed sometimes the experts in a subject would get too caught up in unnecessary details and that someone with a more basic knowledge could write a better patent (These are the opinions I have heard so feel free to disagree). I have a bachelors in Electrical Engineering but I feel I could “talk the talk” nearly the same whether I had a masters or bachelors (I may be way wrong on that so I am open to criticism). A patent attorney from my school received a masters in EE, and when I asked him if I should do the same, he firmly replied “No it is not needed, just focus on law school”.</p>

<p>I was thrilled to hear how optimistic you are about the job outlook for a patent attorney. Sometimes people try to tell me horror stories about how boring patent law can be. I am very interested in patent law, but I have never lived a day as a patent attorney so who I am to say. Do patent attorneys get a certain number of weeks of vacation or any special benefits? I am a hard worker but would like a nice balance in life. I would love to hear someone in the field critique being a patent attorney and tell me the things that they do not enjoy about their job. I hear mostly positive things, so it would be an interesting change of pace to hear from a patent attorney about what they do not like.</p>

<p>Thank you all for your time. It means a lot to us aspiring to join your profession that you take time out of your day to offer your opinion and advice to help us through the process.</p>