Parent of Worried Daughter with Relatively Interesting Stats--Please Help!

Parents Forum
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No.</p>

<p>We are white. My daughter attended a predominantly white & asian arts magnet public high school with a California API ranking of 9 (out of 10). She is white & Jewish, but didn’t provide info about her religion, and either checked “caucasian” or “decline to state” on the application form (I honestly don’t know which). Both parents have law degrees from UC campuses (Berkeley & UCLA). </p>

<p>She did apply for financial aid; however the application made clear that she had taken dance lessons throughout childhood and numerous private studios since early childhood and danced with a local youth ballet, and that she had traveled twice to Russia during high school, hardly the marks of an underprivileged background.</p>

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<p>Many people abroad know only the major American schools: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Wharton, Stanford, MIT, etc.
I think she’s worried that if she attends a small liberal arts college, no one in China will know about it, no matter how good it is.</p>

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<p>Forget about China, no one in America will know how good it is. :slight_smile: If name recognition from the “man or woman on the street” is important to you then LACs may not be the right route. </p>

<p>People who matter however – like graduate and professional school admissions committee, employers, acdemics – know and respect these LACs. </p>

<p>We live in Asia and when I mention my alma mater – University of Michigan – I get approving nods. When I mention my son’s school – Williams – I get blank stares, even sympathetic looks. </p>

<p>Without doubt, my son is getting an infinitely better education – relative to his personal needs and style – than I did, relative to mine. Not to say that UMich is a bad school (It’s a great school!) The point is that fit is REALLY important in choosing a school. This applies to social atmosphere and educational style. You’ll do best where you fit best.</p>

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Yanimated, I think that sometimes when kids apply to too many schools, or apply on a lark (just to see if they can get it), that they end up kind of diluting their applications. They just don’t have the time or energy to really research the school and tailor their application to the school, so they send out cookie-cutter applications and then end up being rejected or waitlisted at most colleges. My daughter had a high school friend who applied to 22 colleges-- he was rejected at almost all, and of course ended up at a UC campus. </p>

<p>I think my daughter applied to too many colleges, at 12. Her top choices were Barnard and NYU, and those applications were truly a labor of love. Even when the common app is used, each college had their own set of unique questions for short answers on their supplements, and I felt very confident with my daughter’s answers that the had given those colleges exactly the sort of answers that conveyed her personality and why she was a great fit, and what she had to offer as a student. Chicago was not a particular favorite but she applied EA so it was the very first application submitted, and she had a lot of fun with that one – so once again, the app was special and truly conveyed a sense of her playfulness and sense of humor – which we weren’t all that sure would go over that well given Chicago’s rep as the place where fun comes to die… but it was definitely an entertaining read. </p>

<p>But I really feel that the apps to the 3 schools that waitlisted or rejected her were lifeless. Yes, she used the same basic common app essay that went with everything else… but the short answers lacked the charm that went with most of the other apps. The one school that rejected her was Brown, and truthfully she probably never stood a chance at Brown anyway – but she was waitlisted at Boston U. and everyone had been certain that she would be accepted there. </p>

<p>I can’t tell your daughter what to do… but let’s just say that the schools where my daughter’s love shined through on her applications reciprocated, and the others did not. I think your daughter has a terrific preliminary list but that she should really, seriously think about what she wants in a college, and try to narrow it down somewhat. Applying to more reach colleges will NOT increase chances of getting accepted to one, as despite everything you read, it is NOT a random process. This is especially true for a student who does not have steller grades or test scores — it may very well be a crap shoot for the superstar kid with the perfect SATS and mega-accomplishments, and chances may go up with multiple applications precisely because the kid is a strong candidate for each. </p>

<p>But if the one thing that is going to get the kid through the door is her winning personality, then I think each and every college needs a concerted effort. </p>

<p>Barnard gave my kid some brownie points, I am sure, because she showed up on her own at their campus for an interview on a Friday in late September.</p>

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<p>“According to her, she does not know very many Asians planning on not going to te state school with lower statistics than hers. She might have a better list of ecs and experience, but not academicly.”</p>

<p>Yanimated, some high school students sell themselves short when applying to colleges, while others get too cocky. When you see a lot of kids applying to much lower ranked schools than your daughter is despite similar stats, don’t worry. Guidance counselors and even parents often say “You’ll never get in there” - and so the kid never applies. Sometimes, too, there are financial and personal reasons for chosing a local or lower ranked college. As difficult as it is, you and your daughter need to look at her applications as separate from everyone else’s at her school.</p>

<p>We urged a more balanced list for your daughter in case she doesn’t get into her reach schools, but none (few?) of us said she didn’t have a chance at those schools. I’ve seen some pretty amazing acceptances along with the shocking rejections.</p>

<p>I do hope you return to this thread several months from now to report the results of her applications.</p>

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<p>Most people around here have never heard of the colleges my son is applying to, and I get lots of pitying glances. It’s hard for me, as an adult who knows better and doesn’t have relatives in China, to deal with. The group of small, excellent LACs my son has chosen to apply to are likely to be the best fit for him socially and I feel, as does he, that a good social fit, along with small classes of engaged students and accessible profs, will maximize his UG college experience. But it is hard to maintain confidence in the face of the blank stares from others.</p>

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<p>The Year of the Boar and Jackie Robinson</p>

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<p>ALMOST NO ONE we spoke in our home state ever heard of my S’s college, including the principal of HS. Still, it semed a good fit for him. Now, the GS plus friends and their friends all know of this school.
When I was abroad, Williams was definitely known to people I met with strong educational backgrounds.
I would certainly chose a school based on what is good for the person, and educate others about the good qualities of that school. Your D can get best education as UG, and then consider a named school or firm for future years.</p>

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<p>My only concern for your daughter in the application process to University of Pennsylvania, is that the admissions office will wonder if some of your daughter’s achievements are really her mothers. They may think it wary that she founded the chinese school with her mother and also took over her mothers job of managing the dance class. She may have done this on her own, but they might wonder about it. There are unfortunately a lot of applicants out there who put things down on their application that are really not passions they developed on their own over time. For example, there are applicant who are the children of CEO’s of large companies who get their fathers or mothers to organize large fundraisers at their coroproations and put their own names on it. I am not saying that your daughters involvement is not legitimate. I am just telling you that there is a risk of it being perceived that way. She needs to explain in her application how she came to be involved and take over from her mother or found it with her mother so the admissions officers can understand that the interest is hers.
As for Penn’s Huntsman program it is one of the most difficult in the country it is true. It seems as if you and she are very concerned about name recognition in China. If that is a concern than I would select a number of highly regarded universities here to have on her list. She would need perhaps at least four other schools in that category, a few in the middle and one or two safeties.
I would not worry so much about the 600’s if they are on the high side. While the Huntsman program is very competitive, Penn takes a large number of applicants in the early pool with those scores. If her scores are on the lower side of the 600’s I would have her study and retake them again in December and concentarte on getting in regular decision to a top school if she did not get in early to Penn</p>

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<p>Calmon, That one college consultant may have given you poor advice is a non sequitur to suggest that information given to me on how adcoms scoring applications initially may be similarly invalid. In any case, I will definitely stay away from discussing the subject of race here in the future.</p>

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<p>bethievt. I know exactly what you mean. My D goes to a well-regarded LAC, and she has been told many times by local people that if she does well there, she will be able to transfer to our state U.</p>

<p>LAC of course offers more than great academics. They provide great opportunities for students to be really engaged in EC’s as well. In two months, my D gets to know most of the 420 or so students in her class on first name basis. She has become the Treasurer on her volunteer group, elected to the Student Senate, and been out to two debate team tournaments. I just saw her over Parents Weekend. She keeps saying that she is happy becuase she feels being so productive.</p>

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<p>Gotta agree with Calmom on the personalization and crafting of apps tailored to the school. It is a strategy I have used with good success – in the real world. I have never written the standard cookie-cutter cover letter in applying for a job. I may not apply to as many places as someone else, but my ratio (interviews and job offers to resumes sent) is very good. (I attended state schools – no big names here.)</p>

<p>I have a couple versions of my resume, but the real work is in the cover letter. For purposes of my analogy here, think of the resume as the Common App essay – something that will be reproduced with minor changes for a number of schools (or potential employers, in my case). For many of our kids, it’s the big essay that will get much of the editing scrutiny by teachers, parents, the letter carrier, the family dog, etc. </p>

<p>I devote my time to the cover letter – it is intensely personalized to highlight how I would fit into an organization, what specific skills/accomplishments I bring, and demonstrates that I am a competent writer. It’s usually a full page and it’s so customized that it’s clear it wasn’t “vetted.” The analogy here is to the short answer/school-specific questions on the college apps. </p>

<p>Others have posted on different threads that they feel the long essays are easier than the short ones – and my feeling is they’re correct. Short essays compel clarity of thought and purpose. Every word counts. Personality and intent must shine through. At the same time, short essays may be less “scrubbed,” giving adcomms a glimpse at the student, unguarded and unedited. My feeling is that the <em>short</em> essays communicate much more than the big essays about the level of detail and care a student put into the application.</p>

<p>In my career, I have seen lots of terrific-looking resumes accompanied by horrendous cover letters. If you can’t write a decent business letter, how can I trust that you will treat client data with care and accuracy, and correctly explain policies and regulations to a client who intelligent but who’s not-an-expert-in-this-field? It’s a point I’ve made to my kids since middle school – it’s not what you know, it’s how you demonstrate what you know. This has worked well for one of my kids, who has documented LDs and no accommodations. He may not always get stellar test scores, but there is no denying his passion. He puts it out there, and it gets him into the programs he seeks.</p>

<p>These are skills our kids may have started to develop in preparing applications for summer programs or scholarships, and they will certainly need these abilities as they seek internships and JOBS (!!!) upon graduation. To me, the application process for college is another set of “life skills” that our kids need to master. </p>

<p>So, my advice to the OP is to make sure your daughter can devote the time and passion to her essays that will enable her to show her experiences to best advantage. If that means fewer, highly crafted apps, it may produce better results than many scattershot applications. As with other posters, though, keep the range and variety of schools.</p>

<p>(please forgive any typos…I have mislaid my glasses and am wearing an old pair – I can’t see the screen!)</p>

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bethievt, this is just an unsolvable problem short of going to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, possibly MIT, possibly Stanford or your in-state flagship. </p>

<p>A poster above talked about pitying looks for her poor son being “stuck” at Williams. We get the blank stares about Johns Hopkins where our son is. (Unless it’s the knowing smile from the person who said “That’s in Cleveland, isn’t it?” I guess one two-name school is as good as another, huh Case Western?). I went to Wellesley, which is heard by 50% of the people who ask as Wesleyan. </p>

<p>Just realize it will be your lot in life from this day forward and remember that those who truly know of the places where good educations can be had will recognize your S’s school, for sure.</p>

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<p>“I went to Wellesley, which is heard by 50% of the people who ask as Wesleyan.”</p>

<p>Ha! When my D tells people she goes to Wesleyan, half the time she gets: oh, that’s that good girls school, right. She finds it amusing.</p>

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<p>I’ve also gotten the, “You decided to be a psychologist? Why did you leave your nursing career?”. And I loved being a nurse and it’s a high calling, but being a psychologist is nothing to be ashamed of either.</p>

<p>I’m embarrased that I felt shaken when a friend’s daughter got into Harvard. My son’s carefully crafted list, and it was, by him…I had this lurching feeling that other people would judge him because he was going for LACs and not the Ivy League…and they do judge him and they do judge us. </p>

<p>I keep trying to put it in perspective. Most of the world has nothing to eat. AIDS orphans are proliferating, people are dying in wars or car accidents or being killed by predators and I’m worried about what college my son will be going to? I am, but I know it is miniscule in the greater scheme of things.</p>

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<p>Well, we’re only human bethie; and it stings to be judged. Just remember that it’s them who have the “prestige-monger” blinders on, not you. But you don’t want your S judged through those lenses and none of us wants to be on the receiving end of pitying looks, as though our kids just don’t make the grade. We know our kids are “just as good as,” whether they’re just as good in the ways that mean admission to the namiest-name schools, or just as good in other ways.</p>

<p>At least we have cc:), we can come here and (1) know that virtually every poster here* gets it about the validity of our kids’ choices and (2) we can brag, confess, admit that we’re embarrassed and know that everyone here gets that, too.</p>

<p>*of course, that excludes the poor souls on the Chances threads</p>

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<p>Huntsman sees like an odd choice for a Chinese/Arabic scholar partly because Philadelphia seems like an odd choice for those two subjects. Boston might be better and so might Washington DC–and so is the West Coast. Does your daughter follow a particular set of scholars at UPenn? She should comb throught eh course listings and studentreviews to see if Huntsman really has courses she will love when she is a junior and senior.</p>

<p>There have been a number of debates on CC about the value of going abroad during a US undergraduate education. For students who have other opportunities to travel; ie summers, Gap Years–it sometimes makes more sense to take a mere semester abroad because the coursework at the home university is too darn good to pass up. </p>

<p>Has she considered SOAS in London? <a href=“http://www.soas.ac.uk/studying/index.cfm[/url]”>http://www.soas.ac.uk/studying/index.cfm&lt;/a&gt;
They have a top reputation for those subjects–amd might appeal to a kid who wants to live in a great city.</p>

<p>I’m not sure how the whole race discussion got started but there is no question that SAT scores int eh low 600s will hold her back–Asian or White or AfAm or Hispanic. The rule of thumb that I know about is a combined score of +1450 for Ivy league/Top 25 schools. Also, she should check the scattergrams from her high school to see if anyone has ever been accepted with similar stats.</p>

<p>I know a couple of students who were hoping to get into one of the schools on your daughter’s lists. They both had SATs over 1450, one had a 4.0 GPA, leadership posts, All American sports recognition etc. Both had outstanding writing skills. Unfortunately, the scattergrams showed that this particular university hadn’t accepted anyone from their elite high school with less than a 4.3 (!) GPA for the past five years–even though dozens of excellent candidates had applied. </p>

<p>It is a brutal reality but scattergrams reduce wasted applications.</p>

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<p>bethievt, I’ve heard that in reverse, “Why did you leave your marketing career for nursing?” And now it’s, “How can you stand being a stay-at-home-mom?” “Why did you choose to live in XXtown?” Accompanied by a whole host of incredulous reactions. The questions aren’t genuine attempts to gain understanding or information. They are fairly transparent put-downs. I like your philosphy of placing this pettiness in its proper place in the grand scheme of life.</p>

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<p>bethievt: your son will have all the great opportunities available to your friend’s daughter at Harvard, at HIS LAC. He will miss nothing but the name recognition - and this may actually end up being helpful. If he had a Harvard degree and decided (:eek:Gawd Forbid!) to be a public school teacher, people would look at him and wonder what was wrong with him. Ditto for many other “lowly” professions. And don’t even get me started on “anti-elite-school” job discrimination, where the manager graduate of “no-name-u” declines to hire “elite-school-grad”, because he is intimidated by the degree-name. Nah, your son’s better off at his LAC, and he will lose nothing! ;)</p>

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It’s not a wasted application if it is to a school that the student really wants to attend. It’s better to apply and be rejected than not to apply at all, if the student has any chance whatsoever. As I’ve noted many times, if my daughter had heeded the “advice” about her test scores she wouldn’t be attending the college she is at now. Scattergrams from an elite school have very little bearing on what happens to applicants from an urban public school… where, for the most part, “scattergrams” showing college admit rates don’t exist.</p>

<p>At this point, it’s too late for the applicant to do much about her SAT scores. I did suggest signing up for the December ACT – that looks to me like the only remaining opportunity to increase test scores, beyond waiting for the results of the most recent retake.</p>

<p>But beyond that, the scores are what they are, so you put them out and move on. </p>

<p>What concerns me more is the sense that OP’s daughter hasn’t given as much thought or research into her college choices as would be optimum for someone with high ambitions. The array of different types and locations of colleges; the idea of adding more reaches to balance out the additional match/safeties; the large number of targeted schools; and the expressed focus on prestige makes me think that the kid may simply not have a clear idea of what she wants or what the colleges she targets will want from her. I have no problem with her applying to Huntsman which clearly is a program she dreams of attending – it’s the late addition of more reaches that kind of puzzles me. </p>

<p>But again, I think it’s up to the applicant. There’s no point stressing over test scores after its too late to do anything about them.</p>