Parent of Worried Daughter with Relatively Interesting Stats--Please Help!

Parents Forum
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<p>But, the poster asked for help. For many, that does mean adding schools to the student’s list. Everyone is welcome to offer whatever help that they feel is best. It’s up to the poster to take what he finds useful and leave the rest.</p>

<p>padad, just because you think that suggesting different schools isn’t helpful doesn’t mean that is true or that the OP or her D wouldn’t find the info helpful. Everyone is different. People’s idea of help may differ from yours. A psoter who asks for help on a public board is opening themselves to whatever offers of help other people think is appropriate. The poster, however, can do whatever he wishes with the advice.</p>

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<p>Actually the endless requests for lists of schools on CC gets me a little worried too. For one thing, 95% of the posters (myself included!) will just suggest their own kid’s school if they really like it. The other 5% will suggest University of Chicago. (Of course I’m kidding - well partly - because there are a few posters on here that really have a great handle on all the different schools.)</p>

<p>On the flip side, I wonder if any of the people on the receiving end take the suggestions seriously? I think most just want people to reinforce their own (often) reachy lists.</p>

<p>But, yeah, this is an open forum - you get what you pay for! :)</p>

<p>Sorry for the hijack…</p>

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I didn’t say that one should. My point is that a student who has many other strengths should not give up an a reach college that otherwise seeems like a good fit because of test scores that are below average for that school. </p>

<p>If my own daughter had gotten into merely one reach college where her test scores would have predicted otherwise, then I might chalk that up to a lucky fluke. But she got into FOUR where her test scores were clearly below the norm for entering students. All four were targeted to the extent that one or more areas of strength was a good match for what the college offered. So it isn’t an accident and it isn’t an amazing coincidence: it simply is evidence of the fact that test scores are not nearly as important to college ad coms as they are to the people who spend their time on these boards debating them. Scores “in the 600s” do not put this kid out of range for the top schools, even though they work against her when tallying up strengths and weaknesses. </p>

<p>The OP’s daughter is someone who has the combination of foreign language proficiency and interest/experience in business & economics that is a good fit for the Huntsman program. She doesn’t have standardized tests scores that are optimal for an application, but her subject-specific scores (AP Calc, SAT II language) are good and they may demonstrate something far more important to Huntsman than the generalized SAT CR/Writing/Math scores. We don’t know, because we aren’t on the Huntsman ad com – but we do know that this is a program for students with a specific profile in terms of interests and educational goals, and the d. fits that profile. So she should apply, no matter what the test scores are. </p>

<p>That doesn’t mean she’ll get in – but the point is that you can’t decide that she won’t because she happens to have mediocre test scores, or because she is Chinese and works with her mom. Those are all conclusions based on biases that are not very likely to be the decisive factors. </p>

<p>The one thing we know is that she can’t get in if she doesn’t apply. She is awaiting the report of her most recent testing, but beyond that she can’t change the test results, and she can’t change her life story. </p>

<p>The mistake people make again and again with analysis of test scores is treating the median score range as if it corresponded to a set of minimum qualifications for admissions. It doesn’t. That’s why I pointed out that the 1/4th at the bottom do get in and enroll. I think it is safe to assume that every one of those bottom-quarter testing students have some other outstanding characteristic and/or “hook” that makes the difference – but it is NOT safe to assume that “hook” has to be URM / development case/ recruited athlete. I think sometimes it is sometimes just a student who has the kind of application package that leaves the ad com wanting the student, and the test scores are not enough to dissuade them. This would be especially true in cases where the kid has good grades across a challenging curriculum, coupled with other demonstrable measures of achievement (such as AP scores), which tends to indicate that the student performs consistently better than she tests.</p>

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<p>Interesting scattergram, ekitty. I just compared the top 25 school that I mentioned before (no admits below a 4.5 GPA from a private elite) with Garfield–and the stats aren’t that different. 1 admit below 4.0–with an SAT of 1525. All other admits above 4.0 with 1425 + SATs–1470 average.</p>

<p>This school is on yanimates list but in truth, it is wasted effort.</p>

<p>Sorry but UPenn is also a wasted app fo y’s D. In the past three years, Garfield has NO acceptances below 1390/4.0 GPA. A 1260 is not going to cut it. Period. The average SAT is 1530 for heaven’s sake. That is 98%! Garfield obviously has some very qualified applicants, urban public or not. Not surprising that they allow strangers to view their scattergrams.</p>

<p>Confirming your experience with Barnard, calmom, there is a single Barnard acceptance with an SAT of 1250, GPA 3.75.</p>

<p>What percentage of the class is NM scholar, ekitty? Looking at some of the scattergrams–there are an awful lot of kids with high SAT scores–or is it the same 20 applying to all the top schools?</p>

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<p>“I think sometimes it is sometimes just a student who has the kind of application package that leaves the ad com wanting the student, and the test scores are not enough to dissuade them.”</p>

<p>I agree with this. We have no clear idea why one student is accepted and another is rejected; we aren’t sitting in on those decisions and therefore can only guess. </p>

<p>I do know that grades can trump SATs. ECs further differentiate students - but again, there’s no way of knowing what will impress the ad-coms. Sometimes it’s as simple as a knock-out essay.</p>

<p>On a related note, I believe it was emeraldkity4 who said it would be beneficial to see a scattergram confined to last year’s applications. Anything that happened several years ago is only marginally relevant since the competition has gotten much worse in the past two years. Still, a scattergram should not be relied upon too heavily since it does not take into account student individuality. Yan and daughter should take a tough look at last year’s seniors to see where they got in.</p>

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Well, November is a good time to find some safeties that are similar to the dream school. For example, what other colleges offer strong language study/business/econ/international relations programs, and offer strong programs of instruction in both Chinese and Arabic? </p>

<p>I just don’t think an attack on the OP daughter’s existing desire to apply to reach colleges is warranted. He acknowledged at the outset an understanding of weaknesses and the realization that Huntsman admission chances were slim – it makes sense to help with some suggestions of other match/safeties. I don’t think that means that one needs to attack the dream schools, nor to attack the option of the local in-state public flagship as one of the safeties – both of which dominated this thread.</p>

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<p>College apps take so much effort, calmom. What 17 year old has the time to pour themselves into 10 or 12 --6 of which are Water Into Wine propositions ?? (not Hail Marys because the possibility does not even show up once on the scattergram). Barnard is a Hail Mary–because they did make an exception at least once before–at Garfield and at your D’s school.</p>

<p>This is not to say that yanimate’s D shouldn’t reach for the stars–but her undergraduate stars are likely to be located in schools outside the top 25–like 97% of aspiring American college students. What is the big dream crusher about that statement? My guess is that yanimate never studied the scattergrams. Otherwise, he might have gently discouraged his D from pursuing an unobtainable goal.</p>

<p>Perhaps the CC mantra needs a rejoinder. “Love Thy Safety and Choose Thy Reach After a Good Look at the Scattergrams.”</p>

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<p>The scattergrams were really interesting to me. I was expecting to see more of a break gven to kids at an inner city public, especially one with such a large number of URMs.</p>

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<p>I had fun with the scattergrams. I had never seen one before. Am I correct in assuming that these are used only with large, public schools? Is this software used by high schools across the country?</p>

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Barnard didn’t make an “exception” for my daughter. My daughter is exactly the kind of student they look for – hence her admission out of the RD pool. She got to Barnard and found herself amid a class full of strong-headed women where she is a great fit. Of course the school was a reach, but it wasn’t a Hail Mary - it was a very logical choice for a kid with my daughter’s interests, backgrounds, and profile where there was a reasonable likelihood of admission. In fact, if my daughter had been applying a few years earlier, I would have considered the school a match – it only became a “reach” as the selectivity dropped below the 35% level within the past 3 or 4 years. As it was, I figured my daughter’s odds of admission were just about as good as any other applicant - about a one-in-four, which to me is pretty good odds.</p>

<p>My point above is that if you rely on the 25-50% spread figures, then 25% of the kids are “exceptions” – but of course the real key is that the test scores are neither the sole nor the primary factor considered in admissions. You might as well conclude that my daughter’s chances of getting into Barnard were greater because she is white (67% of Barnard students are white) - or less because she didn’t live in New York, as statistics make it very clear that there are far more New Yorkers than Californians there. Of course we know that the contrary is true: Barnard needs more minorities and out-of-staters, so factors adding to geographical/racial diversity are usually a plus. </p>

<p>Of course there is no such boost for test-score diversity – but the logical fallacy is the same: you are using statistical data from a single objective data point to draw a conclusion when the data you are using is only a small part of the range of factors considered in admission.</p>

<p>The problem with a scattergram is that it gives you even less information – now you are limited to one school, and very often there is overlap in which the top or most outstanding students apply to multiple schools, and many are competing for the same schools, and there is an inherent bias towards the students most favored by the faculty of that school. </p>

<p>The Garfield scattergram is also undermined somewhat because of the lack of grade weighting – those 4.0’s are not all equal. My d’s unweighted GPA was below 4.0, but weighted GPA was above 4.1 (with 4.3 probably being the maximum theoretical obtainable at the school based on number of AP offerings). Often the slightly lower unweighted GPA tells a more compelling story, if the GPA happens to be brought down by a few B’s in challenging AP courses that other kids with 4.0 GPA’s didn’t take. </p>

<p>Those scattergrams are useful as one of several tools for assessing “chances” at a given school, but they are not as useful as other specific, non-numeric information about the particular kid and the particular school. In any case, the Garfield scattergram seems to confirm the OP’s identification of Chicago and Reed as schools where admission is probable, especially once you take into consideration information about admissions policies for those colleges.</p>

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<p>I didn’t look at the scattergram for Barnard from garfield- my daughters friend who went to Barnard ( and later transferred to the UW) actually went to a school that was so small, that if they had, had a scattergram you would have been able to put names to all the dots</p>

<p>I thought the scattergram was actually pretty useful- because although the grades aren’t weighted- you also dont have information like- did he have Truax or OSullivan for APUSH?- but you do have their SAT scores- so in combination with GPA, I feel that GPA is meaningful in that context.</p>

<p>I also didn’t hear anyone say that the OP daughter shouldn’t apply to those schools- only that to not have any schools that met her interests but had higher admission rates might not serve her well in the long run.
Calmoms daughter did well in admissions- but my niece- with an International baccalaurate diploma- the interest factor of being LDS- great grades and scores- * didn’t get into any of her reach schools* and all she applied to was the UW- which no way in heck was she going to go there realistically & a school at the farthest end of the country, that wasn’t on her list at all until a particulary friendly admission counselor convinced her to apply</p>

<p>georgetown for example ( wasn’t that on OP list?) also has denied most of the students from Garfield who applied and Rice admitted 4 over the last several years- all over 1400 SATs including one with a 4.00 and 1600.</p>

<p>So again it isn’t about not applying but about focusing energy to the schools that really are solid choices despite being- a reach- (and they are reaches for everyone just because of the small percentage of students they admit) but then move on to selecting some schools that perhaps have double digit admittance rates :slight_smile:
To only have reaches- and a couple safeties, whther or not those choices are appropriate for safties for this student- isn’t wise.</p>

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<p>I agree that the student should not have ONLY reaches, but I think Reed, Chicago & Middlebury are matches, not reaches, based on the other info we have about the student. (I do NOT think Reed is a safety for her). </p>

<p>We have to keep in mind that the admission rate and factors considered depend on individual programs within the school. Georgetown has a specific program where students can apply directly to study a specified foreign language – I think the admission decisions for that program are made by the language faculty (or with input from them) as opposed to the general ad com. Of course Georgetown also has the School of Foreign Service, which is extremely selective, but again is looking for a specific type of student. Students who want to study less common foreign languages, especially those languages targeted as strategic languages by the US State Dept, may have a leg up in admissions. Very simply: they have something the college wants, which may also be something that may attract government money at some level. </p>

<p>So when I went off in search of colleges for my daughter I did some research: I counted heads among the Russian-teaching faculty and compared that with the number of students enrolling in their courses. I figured the larger the discrepency (more faculty/less students), the more my daughter’s specific interest would tend to function as a hook for admission. </p>

<p>So I guess my advice to the OP’s daughter would have been to add in one more sure-fire safety, and to forget about reaches where there was not a strong match between the d’s educational goals and a specialized program at the reach college. The scattergram from her school to Georgetown isn’t helpful because we don’t know how many of those students were prospective foreign language majors, and which program they applied to. In the same way, data at my kid’s school about admission to UC Berkeley would not have helped me, because I knew that my d. would not be viewed in the same way as a prospective bio or psych major. Average test scores at colleges are often driven up by math & science oriented kids, who end up being weighed in a much more competitive environment, by different standards. On the other hand, the casual addition of Harvard and Dartmouth on a lark (just to see if she’ll get in, apparently) – makes little sense.</p>

<p>No one at Huntsman is going to be laughing when they see her app. Even if she doesn’t make the cut she will be seen as a viable candidate because her history and her goals fit in with what Huntsman is looking for. But I can see her app going into Harvard’s reject pile without a second look. </p>

<p>You have to look at things from the ad coms point of view, and be able to answer the question, “why should we accept this student above the others?”. I can hypothesize an answer for Huntsman… I don’t see it for the reaches that seem to have been added in merely because of ranking and prestige.</p>

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<p>I like this…mind if I use it?</p>

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<p>Hadn’t ever heard being LDS as an interest factor…</p>

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<p>Goodness. I’m gone for a day and suddenly we’re onto page 16 with more than 200 reponses.</p>

<p>So the general opinion of the board seems to be: 1) Make more realistic choices, 2) visit the schools, and 3) make sure she knows what she wants.</p>

<p>Well, she has seemed to achieve them all. This board has inspired her to go visit the colleges, but tat’s probably because it will increase her chances a little.</p>

<p>Harvard, Northwestern, Penn. Georgetown
Middlebury, Dartmouth, Barnard
Johns Hopkins, Chicago, NYU, Cornell,
GW, Reed, UW</p>

<p>14 schools. Pretty good, more balanced. I think this is what we’re going to stick with. If she only gets into Reed, George Wash, and UW, well then, she’ll get a good education nonetheless. If she really doesn’t like it there, she can transfer.</p>

<p>She just sent out her application to Huntsman, we can only hope they will at least take her into consideration before tossing it into the Wharton bin (her alternate). </p>

<p>From her e-mail: “I’m just hoping that they will still consider me, even for a minute, as a possible candidate for Wharton, if not Huntsman. Hopefully I’m at least waitlisted or deferred so I can visit them in person, amaze them, write an even more brilliant essay, and annoy them so much they will have no choice but to let me in.”</p>

<p>She still has a chance at Huntsman. She’s certainly fulfilled their requirements and put her heart into the application. If she gets in, great. There will be a lot of yelling, crying, calling, jumping, and running. If she doesn’t get in, well okay. She’ll probably be sad for a few minutes and then begin writing an essay for school X and she will have her other applications ready to go before you can say The Huntsman Program in International Studies and Business.</p>

<p>Also, I might point out that she is not as much into prestiage as you may think. It’s just required that the college isn’t some small, unknown, mediocre school in Montana. If she were truly into prestige, she would have definitely listed the “Asian 12” (Ivies, MIT, Stan, Berk, Caltech) and probably Oxford. But she didn’t.</p>

<p>As for the entire “the school should be well known internationally”, I might have phrased that badly. I think that she wouldn’t mind were she went (on her list), but if it were well known in the areas she would conduct business in, it would be an added plus.</p>

<p>I don’t think 14 applications will tire her out. She’s well prepared and very meticulous. I trust that she will put effort into all of her applications. She should know by now what a pivotal time it is for her.</p>

<p>cheers: Yes, she has heard great things about the Arabic program at Penn. Met someone who studied Arabic there at her Arabic camp. The Chinese program should be pretty solid because there are so many studying Chinese there.
-She does not want to do a gap year. Believes it’s a waste of time.
-She’s not looking at schools outside of the United States for several reasons, mainly having to do with money.
-The scores might not stay in the 600s for long. CollegeBoard will be posting new scores in roughly 3 to 4 hours.
-We have heard of non-legacy, non-wealthy/famous, unathletic students with even lower scores getting into “elite” schools. One of her friends got a 25 on the ACT and goes to Cornell U. They are very much alike. </p>

<p>calmom: I trust her when she says that she has done her research. If you look at her new list, you’ll see that she has still stuck with her main schools.
She’s taken the ACTs before. She did well on everything except for the science portion, which brought her cumulative score down tremendously.
If she’s rejected ED from Huntsman, she will be judged for Wharton.</p>

<p>cheers: Now, now, I never said they were low 600s right? I just said they were in the 600s.</p>

<p>And might I add, for those of you who are looking at the Naviance site, my D’s GPA is listed as 4.0 (the highest) because it is weighted by the site.
And I wouldn’t trust the site much. Though interesting, it as its holes; it doesn’t have all the data.</p>

<p>mathmom: The UW is known for rejecting people too qualified for the school. Tufts syndrome.</p>

<p>suze: My D scored in level 7 for the HSK (Chinese proficiency) examination. A score of level 6 is required for students to study in most Chinese universities. Somewhat rare for someone her age, but it also shows how much she learned in just one year (jumping from level 4 to 7 is huge). Her transcript at the univ in China is also pretty good.
I think the 770 might have been a fluke. Because Mandarin is one of the main languages spoken at home, she does not learn a lot of the basics and thus, does not score well on the SAT II, which is all basics. Instead, she scores very well on the HSK, past the basics and definitely the much harder test.</p>

<p>I appreciate all of the feedback from this thread. Good and bad, it has all been helpful. And it has produced results. My D has changed her list around a bit and has decided to visit colleges next month.</p>

<p>Also, in response to the Chinese mom, my D specified in the short answer portion that she did the legal work, etc. and handles all English aspects of the company. She also says that the school is the family’s only source of income, and therefore, they cannot afford accidents, everything must be perfect.</p>

<p>What does LDS stand for?</p>

<p>Rice is off the list. Georgetown is very close to being axed because it is a Catholic school and Catholic schools tend to focus more on GPA and scores. I think it’s also why she left Notre Dame off. There’s an even lower chance of being accepted.</p>

<p>calmom: We spoke to a former Dartmouth adcom and she told us that the D may have a good chance of getting in there based on her unique activities and backround.
Harvard, well, let the girl dream.
Also, she visited Harvard, was given a private tour by a professor there and enjoyed it. So I wouldn’t call it completely random. If she were so into prestige the other Ivies would be on there. Including US Weekly’s number 1 college Princeton.</p>

<p>Only time will tell. If her new scores are better, I’ll probably post them. If not, then it’s time to buy someone an ice cream cone.</p>

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<p>

What was the ACT composite? For reasons unknown, the range of ACT scores for admitted/enrolled students at most colleges seems to pull in somewhat lower scoring students than the equivalent SAT score. So strategically it may be valuable to submit ACT scores to many of the colleges, even with a low score on one sub test.</p>

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<p>Regarding the Tuft’s syndrom aspect of her safety school(s), just make sure that she visits and that they know it, and that she communicates a genuine (sounding?) and specific interest in those schools. Sorry if this advice has been posted elsewhere, but I just skimmed through this very long thread!</p>

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<p>OP, I’m not suggesting your D do this , only that it is/may be an option. Is she in a position to be standby for the next ACT ( I think it might be this weekend)? </p>

<p>My D had the same ACT results her first try. Excellent everything and then bombed science by getting hung up on one graph of cloud/dewpoints (???). Her retake was excellent. </p>

<p>Since it was science, maybe the same thing could happen for your D. Maybe not, but I’d sure take a swing at it if it was available.</p>

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<p>LDS = Latter Day Saints = Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints = Mormon</p>

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<p>Of course I am not an adcom- but since many students are liberal, some quite liberal, a student who was LDS and whose ECs were all related to her religion, may provide a breath of fresh air to campuses that are trying to get a handle on inappropriate behavior including huge drinking parties and their consequences.( Latter Day Saints have a strict code of behavior including, no sex until marriage, no alcohol,caffiene or tobacco for anyone which also is probably behind members with a strong representation in the FBI,CIA and the military)
She ultimately attended a larger LAC, that was not nearly as prestigious as her most of her other choices- graduating Summa Cum Laude.</p>

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<p>710CR/770M/690W</p>

<p>240 point increase. She was disappointed by the scores, especially the 690, but it’s better than nothing.</p>

<p>Too bad she can’t take them again. She’s retaking the SAT Math II in December.</p>