@GTalum, were your brother and SIL counting on your parents’ estate to fund their retirement? It’s not an excuse for bad behavior, but it may be an explanation that your SIL has been widowed and is frightened because her financial security died with her husband. You are not obligated to provide her with information, but maybe can at least acknowledge her concerns, since you have both lost someone you loved.
You had to work hard for a long time to get your parents into the safe situation they are in now, and since she was not a part of that effort she probably does not appreciate what you put into it.
Looking forward: what does it mean to give each POA independent authority?
runnersmom: Can I appoint a guardian or conservator ahead of time?
MomofJandL: No, my sister in law says she is doing fine financially. It seems she is concerned for her kids financial security. For example, she is concerned they won’t be able to buy a house until they save up enough money. Niece has student loans. I understand, their money is sitting there and not being used for anything productive. I doubt they will need all of it for their care, but maybe. But, I don’t think I can set up a trust to do anything different . I can certainly try to gift the money to grandchildren, but it would be my decision, not my parents. Is that moral or ethical? I would love to acknowledge her concerns, but she is not clear what they are.
As far as I know (it depends on the laws in your jurisdiction), you have to go to court to have a conservator or guardian appointed. Whether that can be done on a “what if” basis, to replace you if something happens, I don’t know. Your estate lawyer should be able to advise you.
Also, what you can do with their money prior to their death will depend on the language in your Power of Attorney - are your powers restricted? Again, speak with your lawyer - these are not uncommon issues and I suspect he or she will be able to best advise you. As far as gifting the money to the next generation while your parents are still alive, I’d be careful. My mom kept my dad at home and cared for him herself and with aides for 5 years after his stroke. It was expensive, but in-facility care would have been even more. It’s hard to predict the kind of care our parents will need and I’d rather keep the funds for their care until it’s no longer necessary, but it’s a personal and family decision dependent on so many factors.
GT, independent means “either or.” Either Jane or Bob. Not Jane and Bob need to agree. Ideally, the two already think along the same lines and you anticipate they will continue to. I agree your state can have rules and regs that affect some choices.
Yes, I have “durable power of attorney.” Gosh, I miss my brother. He would use plain speech and stick to what he flet to be right. He would want the money to be available for their care until it wasn’t needed anymore. I feel very lonely and isolated with this.
GTalum, {{{hugs}}} it is a big job! but there is help and you don’t have to be isolated. Once you start looking, there are lots of people dealing with these issues.
For the guardianship/conservatorship (they are actually different and you need both) you can identify someone to do it which will help it go through, but the courts will grant the papers. They are happy to have someone identified and interview the person to be guarded to be sure there was no coercion. A durable POA works nearly as well, but if you want someone NOT to be able to sign a contract nor give away their own money, you have to have the conservatorship. And then there are reporting rules for every $ spent, so it adds court costs. If someone is still reasonable and there is no one trying to take advantage, just the POA is sufficient as far as I could see. I only smack down the guardianship/conservatorship I have when I deal with financial people where I don’t want Mom to be able to have access.
My brother is on the same page with me usually, but I really miss my sister for help. She would have been better than bothof us together.
Oh my, won’t be able to buy homes until they save enough money? Don’t even know where to start with that. Keeping your parents’ money available for their care, whatever that requires and how ever long it is needed is obviously your only priority here. And good for them that they have enough to make that work.
More hugs, GT ((((((( ))))))). Not that any of us can do anything real-world, but at least know that on this thread, we’ve got your back.
I don’t have much to add except to emphasize this from runnersmom:
Extreme old age can get extremely expensive, and you don’t want to find yourself scrambling for funds down the road. And your SIL probably shouldn’t be counting on it for her kids’ futures, because 25% of what’s left may not be nearly what she thinks it’ll be.
Yes LasMa and runnersmom, that is exactly what my brother would have said. Keep the funds for their care, it is their money. I don’t see why I need to let beneficiaries know finances. It’s not their money yet, it is my parent’s money. Maybe that is what SIL doesn’t understand.
Maybe so. What kind of relationship do you have with her, or what kind of relationship did you have with her before your brother died? If you have a solid foundation and you want to preserve the relationship, maybe you could sit down with her and clear the air. NOT because you have a legal obligation – you don’t – but for the sake of familial peace. She’s already hurting from the loss of her husband, and maybe all of this is coming from her feeling out of the loop, emotionally.
Of course, if you think the result of that would just be more animosity, avoid it and deal with her as neutrally as possible.
Sorry you’re going through this. It really sucks when you’re busting your butt to care for the older generation, and at the same time your own generation is taking potshots at you.
Can you tell her that “Brother and I discussed this several times and we agreed that the money should not be disbursed until we know what is ahead for mom and dad. That was a solid plan and that is how I am going forward.” If you want you can tell her about the claw back and how that wouldn’t be good for her kids either.
Exactly. The more you answer, the more she will ask. And its inappropriate. You continue to manage your parents affairs, pay their bills, take them to the Dr., get their taxes done, etc etc as you have been, and politely decline to discuss your parents’ money matters. You are following their instructions and their wishes, and there is no reason to divert from that. And yes, cash flow could become an issue and you don’t want to mess with that. IT sounds like the only issue to be addressed is potential back up plans for POA, healthcare proxy and executor/executrix should something happen to you.
In my state there is no conservatorship. There is guardianship over person and over property. The procedure was explained above: You typically have a Dr. see them and fill out the forms, and then they are sent for an independent evaluation to make sure they aren’t being taken advantage of. Hopefully you would request and be given guardianship as you are handling everything else. Hopefully no need to have an independent person outside the family. Good luck.
I thought we had a pretty good relationship, however, she is on the other coast and we don’t really have a chance to sit down and talk to clear the air. She comes to our coast to visit her mother regularly but has not chosen to come to see us (about 6 hours). I would like to preserve the relationship and what Tempemom says seems like a good way to say it. What is the claw back?
In the unlikely event that your parents exhaust their funds and are reliant on Medicaid the gov’t can go back after any monetary gifts made in the five years prior.
So sorry you’re having to go through this, GTalum. I agree with those who’ve said that your priority needs to be your parents’ finances and their possible future care.
Your SIL certainly has trust issues, but you’re not obligated to disclose any financial info to her. She’s going through a tough time now with the sudden death of your brother, so maybe she’s dealing with it by trying to have all her and her children’s ducks in a row. That still doesn’t mean you need to tell her the kind of details she’s looking for.
Clawback (is that the right term?) usually refers to the monies given away to drain assets so Medicaid or other support can come earlier. An elder is still allowed to make reasonable and ordinary gifts. And as POA, GT could, on her parents’ behalf. A $100 birthday gift isn’t in the same sort of jeopardy as a house down payment would be. Or, you could reasonably pay niece’s travel expenses, if she needs to visit for some legit reason (especially if you try to legally add her as your POA successor and she needs to be present for some dealing.)
Maybe SIL doesn’t mean give them a down payment now- maybe she’s thinking down the road.
I think the base concern is for her children’s inheritance. But, many accusations were lofted at me. The first was making financial decisions that effect her children without consulting my niece. The next was my brother not really trusting me to make financial decisions and only agreed as I was local. And then finally, I was putting my parents at risk of being wards of the state because I took “bad advice” from the attorney who recommended against trying to amend the legal documents set up 1 1/2 years ago. Lots of hostility and anger which hurt and I’m afraid to wade back into it to repair an apparent rift.
GTalum, you are a fiduciary for your parents, not your niece. You do not owe her any financial duty. Your parents’ money is theirs, not your niece’s, and you are very properly administering it for the benefit of your parents.
Sorry for all you are navigating on behalf of your folks, as well as the loss of your brother and the uneasiness with your sister-in-law. Others are right that your role, assigned by your parents, is to look out for them and use what you know about their finances and preferences to assist them. It is good that you know how your brother thought about these issues and you had a shared approach. Odds are high that sister in law knew how he felt, also. At some point, you may be able to tell her that it is a comfort to you that you and your brother were on the same page with this, and it guides you forward.
Keeping things warm, while not inviting detailed input and requests for sharing, could be a challenge, yet time may help his family realize that you are doing your job on behalf of your folks, and you will ensure that his now adult children are treated as the wills dictate. We are currently updating our own estate plans and simplicity is our attorney’s mantra. I wish you the best and am quite sure that a legal consultation will put you in a good position to cover the issues outlined in previous posts.