All great advice - I need to set real boundaries, whether my H can or not. GT, it’s not that my SILs have set boundaries, it’s that they have perpetuated their positions as children (mind you, they are 50, 56 and 60) and always act like they need to be taken care of, not the reverse. And my in-laws have perpetuated this version of reality in so many ways. Truly, no matter the circumstances. A lot of the dysfunction comes from places I can intellectually understand; my FIL is a Holocaust survivor, there is a lot of money involved, and my uneducated MIL could never understand how to deal with adult children etc. And for 37 years I have, to one extent or another, accommodated the crazy. One good thing, it has made me appreciate my family’s more run-of-the-mill issues! I think I may look for a counselor, at least for me. Thanks all for helping me see what I need to do.
@runnersmom, yep venting here can really clarify things and sometimes writing it out can open one’s own eyes. HUGS, it is hard.
And I have another hard topic. Mom got the flu after Easter and followed up with a bladder infection. Before that she wasn’t eating much and lost 16 lbs in 2 months. She lost another 10 in the month with the flu. I was up to see her two weeks ago and it was scary how thin she was, but she seemed on the mend. She was getting dressed. Not going to meals. AL put a plan in place to have her drink more especially Ensure. She started complaining that she felt like throwing up if she ate even a bite. But she was also on antibiotics for the UTI. and since she has had so many, they were strong. I thought that is what upset her stomach. Yesterday she got taken to ER (from 2pm to 9:30pm… I paid an aid OT to go sit with her, she wouldn’t know why she was there and would be scared). But now what? I can’t go feed her for a week. Wish I could. I can’t bring her home. DH is having blood pressure issues and having her near would send it sky high.
At the hospital they gave her an IV, even though the AL nurse suggested a feeding tube of nutrition. (Mom has POLST on file NO FEEDING TUBE… I would have let it happen ONCE). The hospital didn’t admit her.
Is it time to call hospice? It is time to go sit with her and try to feed her baby food for a while.
I am going to wait for today to talk to Dr. and also talk to an acquaintance whose Mom was in the same AL place and who had hospice, and they had a lot of people in town. I really panicked when I realized Mom has no one in town that could go sit in the hospital with her. I think at the very least we should think harder about moving her closer to my brother, even though Mom is very scared of that and doesn’t want to change. Don’t think it would be good in the short term, but I really don’t know if there even IS a long term. This stinks.
Feeding tubes don’t work any better than hand feeding for weight gain for seniors like your mom, esobay.
The hospice idea sounds like a good one. Hospice nurses are experts in providing the kind of personal care that your mother sounds like she needs at this point.
Yes, definitely talk to the doctor about your concerns. I’d especially ask about prognosis. If the dr thinks she could pull out of this and have some quality of life afterward, then you might start laying the groundwork for a move when she’s stronger (knowing that it might not happen anyway). If not, it might be time to call in palliative care and hospice.
Since her POLST form says No Feeding Tube, I’d be really really hesitant to do it, unless directly requested by Mom. I think we sometimes – with the best of intentions – do our elderly a disservice by trying to hold on to them when they’re getting ready to go, and forced feeding is one of the ways we do that. I do not know if your mom is at that point yet. But it’s something to keep in mind when making decisions, now or down the road. @travelnut once spoke to me about allowing my dad to make a graceful exit.
Sent you a message, eso. Hang in there.
Eso, I would not consent to a feeding tube even once. If you do, it will be very difficult to remove if this turns into a chronic problem. I would consider an aide or a sitter to help her eat. But I wouldn’t force it. My FIL stopped eating, and it was the most peaceful death I had ever witnessed. I would not yet talk about a move if she is content where she is. Agree with LasMa on how to proceed.
I have an update with my meeting with my parent’s estate lawyer. I know everyone will be shocked that she agreed with everyone’s advice: No to changing documents (much too risky legally), guardianship is the best way to go if I cannot act on their behalf, no one has a right to financial statements, my job is to care for my parent’s best interest, not an inheritance, and ignore SIL. Love this community.
GTalum, it’s great that you now have clear legal direction and can act with a clear conscience, doing what is right for your parents.
Gtalum,
Our hourly rate is just slightly less than your attorneys
Glad you got the answers you need and can move forward knowing you’re doing the right thing for your parents.
GTalum - so glad you got confirmation from the attorney. Now you can simply let SIL know that you are simply following the attorney’s advice. If she is not happy, then she can consult with said attorney (at her own cost!) to see if she can get another answer. But I doubt that she’d be willing to spend her own money on this. She sounds more like a bully than a rational person. She is so wrong to get herself involved in this.
I don’t know if its appropriate for GTalum’s attorney to talk to another family member, even with GT’s permission. ITs simply none of the sil’s business.
I wouldn’t think the attorney would talk to SIL at all without GT’s permission, and I’m not so sure it’s a good idea anyway. I doubt that it would quell SIL, but it might give her the impression that she’s a party to this. And it might inspire her to get her own lawyer.
Runnersmom, I can empathize. I have had to Just Say No to my mother in gentle but firm ways. Many pages ago, I said we try to do the right thing, we want to. But at points, we can’t. It helps when we can see some aspects of the relationships clearly. Sometimes, that’s counseling. Sometimes, yup, we get the needed perspective right here. Take care of your husband.
Eso, best wishes. Not eating can represent so much. I hope you reach the doc and get the assessment that helps you make the next decisions.
And GT, glad you got the legal advice.
Hugs to all of you.
ps. if the SIL is on her high horse, even if she spoke to the attorney, she could still stir up dust, accuse him, whatever. Maybe GT just draws her line in the sand and stays on her side of it.
Esobay – I really, really regret helping my dad get a feeding tube towards the end, though his doctor encouraged it. His cancer was of the fast variety anyway, and the tube was uncomfortable and forced the transition to being an invalid when he might have had a few more weeks of being more comfortable. It did not help him at all with weight gain. He could no longer sleep on his stomach or his side, he had to change away from the pants he preferred, and he could no longer summon the strength to get up unassisted because of the surgery’s impact on his abdominal muscles.
That is strictly anecdotal evidence, but I’d encourage you to really explore pro’s and con’s of a feeding tube in her case, and perhaps have a good conversation with a palliative care specialist if that is appropriate.
Esobay - I so sympathize with you. Watching someone choose not to eat is difficult. Was there a point in the last few months when you felt she was feeling well, and eating…thriving, so to speak? Could she be depressed? Or maybe she just doesn’t feel hungry. For some people, I think they need that physical feeling of hunger to entice them to eat. Over the last year of my dad’s life, he pretty much stopped eating and there was nothing anyone could do to entice him to eat - he just wasn’t interested. Now, to be honest, he was essentially paralyzed (as a result of a major stroke) on his left side and spent his day sitting in a wheelchair or his recliner, so no need for much energy. Of course he lost weight, and when he died he was probably down 70 pounds from the day of the stroke. He just said nothing appealed to him, and he wasn’t hungry. Since taking care of and feeding him was my mother’s raison d’être, it was probably harder on her than him. My perception, and I live 400 miles from them, so we’re talking every 3-4 months, was that he wasn’t hungry, his body wasn’t asking for more fuel, and to be honest, he’d just had it with life as he was living it, and he was shutting down. Like arabrab, just one person’s experience.
GTAlum, do you think it’s possible that your s-i-l is just completely freaked out about losing her husband so suddenly and unexpectedly? If there’s a way for the lawyer to communicate with her, maybe it could defuse some of her emotional issues. You could ask the lawyer if he thinks it’s a good idea.
Esobay, I also had to decide about a feeding tube for my dad, and I am glad that I went with the instructions in his living will and didn’t permit it. But he was also close to the end after a hemorrhagic stroke so it was an easier decision. But I agree that the tube can be life-changing, and not in a good way.
I don’t remember how far away you are from where your mom is, but if you can’t get a good picture, would it be possible to make a short trip to evaluate and figure out what care and services would be best for her?
So sorry, it’s a very chilling feeling to have to make these decisions when it may be close to the end.
I asked the attorney to write an e-mail about her recommendations and obligations. It is short and sweet:
"After speaking with you today, my advice would be to not attempt to change your parents’ documents at this time. Due to their recent medical diagnosis of dementia, etc. I fear that attempting to change the documents now could be challenged based on lack of capacity or anther related claim.
You are the current power of attorney and will be able to continue that role as long as you are willing and able. Your duty is to your parents to assist them to manage their finances in a prudent, responsible manner. At this time, you have no duty to anyone else, including any future possible beneficiaries.
If for some reason something were to happen to you, an interested relative would be able to apply for guardianship to take over with assisting your parents manage their affairs."
As with the same advice from my estate attorney, I will forward to niece but will leave SIL out of the discussion. If she tries to “beat me up” again (bully was a good work bookreader!) I will let her know she is free to challenge my as a POA and I will see her in court so I like the line in the sand idea lookingforward since no chance in heck.
Here is the advice from the American Academy of Geriatricians, regarding feeding tubes for patients in advanced dementia:
http://www.americangeriatrics.org/files/documents/feeding.tubes.advanced.dementia.pdf
Short answer: they say, don’t do it. esobay, I don’t know if your mother is in advanced dementia, but I think a lot of the reasoning still applies.
I feel like sometimes the American medical culture has evolved to fight death and dying no matter what. Sometimes the body is shutting down. When my Dad had cancer, the doctor told us that it gets to a point where even if the patient eats, the body cannot properly absorb nutrients so feeding is actually stressing the body and causing discomfort.
I feel very strongly that once the mind is going/gone, we should not disrespect the body’s attempt to shut down, sometimes it really is “time.”
I hope, esobay, that you come to a point of clarity about your Mom’s current status. I don’t know where on that journey she is.