Parents caring for the parent support thread (Part 1)

Yes, physically, they can walk well and take very few Rx. Am not sure how much they remember and when. When we are going to go somewhere (outing), have to remind them a number of times, including a few days before, night before and morning of event.

So far, they can find their way back to the hotel. (Mom has trouble figuring out her room tho.). They are having a hard time remembering where we park for football, tho we try to park around the same place to every time. Once for the theater, H dropped us off because it was raining and afterwards took awhile remembering where the car was. Dad was gnashing his teeth in impatience. If unchecked, dad will go dashing off toward where he believes the car should be, even if he was dropped off and has no idea where it is. It is a part of his impulsive personality he’s always had–just seems more pronounced as he ages.

Neither of my folks cook much anymore, which is safer anyway (fewer hazards). They mostly dine out.

It is definitely more challenging to travel and go on outings with my folks, but I wanted to as long as they seemed to be enjoying it. I think we are done with plane trips with them. H has been a good sport about it, but it is quite tiring. He says my sibs can have turns.

Dementia can be variable, and factors like hydration and medications can impact the level of dementia at any point in time. (long post below…)

It’s clear if someone is able to walk but can’t remember to get up and go to the bathroom in time, and can’t remember to eat, they have pretty bad mental impairment. But if we are talking about forgetting names on occasion, or forgetting conversations, but that same person can drive to the local store without getting lost, and cook and feed themselves, and use the bathroom appropriately, and take their medications on time, and call their children and grandchildren on the phone, is it really dementia or is it just a mild impairment that is not systemic?

I had a medical condition which caused dementia, and the worst thing was that I could not talk clearly or understand where I was, but I could remember that when led to dinner, I should eat. And how to eat. I could remember that the people I was with were my loved ones, and that I should listen to them. I could not remember names though. I had trouble understanding where I was, but I knew I was safe. That level of dementia sustained (thank you to modern medicine as I got treatment which cured the episodes) would be too much to let someone live on their own.

Nowadays, I hold down a job but do forget where my car is on occasion. I have no problem realizing where I am and what I am doing (except if I have a severe illness which requires medication adjustment; my spouse aka caregiver knows what to look for symptom-wise). I am terrible with names but always have been.

My point is, I feel that the more we can go through a list of the most important life skills down to the least important life skills, and figure out which are there and which are not, and how often it is an issue, the better off we are about deciding if a loved one needs care part of the day or all day, and/or care outside their home.

Working backwards, and noting all of these can be other problems than dementia:

  • does the person know where they are and who they are?
  • does the person bathroom appropriately, either use the bathroom on their own or tell a caregiver that they need to use a urinal or bedpan, or change a depends?
  • does the person eat appropriately, do they prepare their own food with little help, can they safely use a stove and/or microwave? do they take their medications as prescribed?
  • does the person move around as able, follow PT/exercise instructions when given if bedridden, or walk around as opposed to sit all day? do they tie their shoes, dress themselves, zip their zippers and button their buttons?
  • does the person recognize loved ones, and know they are loved ones, with or without remembering names?
  • is the person agitated and upset regularly, and talking negatively and suspicious of others? is the person violent at all?
  • does the person forget names of objects and places, and names of close loved ones? does the person show agitation when they forget a name, or is it clear they don’t even know who the person is (like that their son is their son, whether they know his name or not)?

That’s about all I can think of now. And the “regularly” part can be important, but at some point, even some of these being a concern 25% of the time can be enough to consider long-term care of some sort.

My dad is still driving, but we have given him restrictions that he follows - no night driving, no driving more than 15 minutes except for one doctor where he goes local roads, and is comfortable. He will tell us to pick him up if he comes to our house, which although it is within 15 minutes, often he would be at our house at night so we don’t want him to have to stay over or drive at night.

He shops and cooks his food himself. He has done things like left cooling food in the oven for weeks, but honestly he was never a cook and had a family event, and it was our bad that we didn’t check on the oven before we left the gathering. He forgets conversations on occasion, but for more than 30 years he has retold stories that were repeats (who hasn’t had that from their parents?), and oddly enough, I’ve heard more new stories over the past five years than I ever had.

Am I worried that he has mild dementia? Yes. Do I try to convince him to let me know if any new symptoms appear, like getting confused where he is when driving or losing track of money or eating? Yes. Does he need 24/7 care? No, I don’t think so.

I’m thinking that within 5 years, he should be living with one of his kids. But for now, he is happy where he is and stable.

As for travel - my dad is not amenable to travel more than an hour or two as he does not like to sit for very long without standing up. It’s just not comfortable for him. He goes to his church and church events, he goes to our houses and will go to school events or sports events on occasion if they are near his house. But that is it. He was forced to travel last year with my brother, and hated it. He went as a caregiver to my adult autistic nephew during the trip, and that was very taxing. I will INSIST that he never go again, despite the “inconvenience” to my brother.

To me, it is unreasonable for a person who is having his/her own cognitive problems to be expected to be caregiver to another adult while traveling. We had our hands full with keeping my folks safe while traveling, WITHOUT expecting them to be caregivers for anyone who had issues.

HImom, their doc can use the mini mental status exam, a series of initial questions that test functioning memory. (Pretty sure we discussed it a hundred or so pages ago.) Here’s a sample http://carstensfreeforms.com/MiniMentalStateExamination.pdf

Sometimes, the people closest don’t recognize some functional issues, esp in the home setting or when they compensate. We all forget things, at times, take the wrong road home or, ya know, right now I can’t figure out where I put that rarely used credit card.

My Mom as well as my FIL have had the exam. FIL is terrified of developing Alzheimer’s. So far, he’s just old. His neurologist said he was fine, but he thinks of how his mother was at the end and is scared.
Mom forgets things, but we are pretty certain it is due to old age or the TIAs. The tests haven’t shown any dementia.

The DSHS nurses gave the exam as did the neurologist. The test giver has to do it right, though. One recommended mom for memory care; the next nurse was livid as she didn’t find anything wrong except the prior nurse wrote down the wrong answers and then didn’t complete the test.

Mom has been showing improvements. The aides are pushing her to use her walker and to go to the kitchen for meals. She’s gained a couple of pounds back, of the 25+ she lost while in rehab. We’ve been getting her out on the weekends and the operator is during the week. shes reading some, but will probably not be able to read complex plots. Her complaining is more normal, not the paranoid stuff.

Traveling with older folks is hard. HiMom, I’m amazed you’ve been able to do as much as you have. It seems to become less of a vacation and more of a chore. Maybe it is time for day trips?
We were disappointed all those years ago when my husband’s grandparents didn’t come across the country for our wedding. They’d done a trip a couple of years prior and had decided that was it for them. Looking back, their foresight for understanding their limitations was, and is, unusual.

The geriatrician refuses to test my folks because he basically says there is no good treatment that can stop or slow dementia and they seem better to him than a lot of his other patients. Since my folks like the doc and he’s otherwise good, we will all just soldier on.

Yes, I don’t think any of us will willingly take my folks on any more trips. This last trip to SF in June was enough for H & me and was our last trip with them. We’re fine with continuing to drive them to local events and gatherings. The January European cruise was dad’s idea and he got one of my brothers and his wife to agree to go with them. We bowed out of that, but mom fell twice during that trip and came home very bruised and with a black eye.

One of my close friends had her D’s wedding in HI so her folks wouldn’t have to travel. They have quite a few relatives in HI as well, but the bride & groom flew in from Boston, their other family & friends flew in from all over the world.

@HImom, yes for Alzheimers there is not a good treatment. @zeebamom, I personally give either MMSE or SLUMS test. It very much depends on who gives it and consistency and reliability. For instance, I have had med students give the test in front of me. They are not trained formally and have not done a lot of them. They are easily naively swayed by answers and lack of trying on the patient part. After they are done and get a very low score I then talk slower, less clinical and more encouraging and you would not believe the difference in the score. OTOH @lookingforward I think that the test is very useful for families who ‘do not get it’ and will not take away the keys, look into assisted living, etc.

I suspect they were tested before being added to the waiting list and making a deposit at the SR living place they prefer, but don’t know for sure, as I wasn’t present.

The MMSE has a high false positive rate as described above. And its just a screener, not a full diagnostic or neuropsych eval.

@rockymthigh, and others, what is your experience with melantonin as a sleep aid for elderly with mixed dementia ( vascular and alzheimers)?

Regarding elderly and driving.
I’m sure this has been discussed, but I just learned about this from alzheimers support meeting Tuesday.
A certified occupational driving evaluator, can assess an elders driving abilities, which takes the dr and the family members off the hot seat. Cost is between $300- $420, and not covered by medicare. Apparently, if found unsafe the motor vehicle agency is notified and send a letter. ( this info from nj and not sure how that differs in other states)
I don’t believe the license is revoked, but there is notification. This part was a little vague.

One of the most difficult decisions, is when and how to convince elders to stop driving.
My 86 year old mother, with macular degeneration, wasn’t willing until she drove onto a road divider and then decided to stop. My father in law ( alzheimers) ran into a large tractor trailer ( no injuries) and family realized that was it. Scary times.

SJCM, just to be clear, I’m not liking the near-misses. But big kudos to you and your family for understanding that it was time to take the keys away, and for taking steps to make it happen. I agree that this is one of the most difficult steps down the path of parenting the parents.

Lasma-I did not write that in response to your post, but in general taking away a drivers license is a most excrutiating ordeal for all. At each alzheimers support meeting there are always stories about fearful adult children worrying about the parents.
My mother should have long before her mishap, not have been driving, and my sister and I constantly worried.
We didn’t take her keys, she relinquished after a close call. She is now dependent on me for all things.
And, now my mother in law, lives alone, is being fiercely resistant to help, just as many post. My brother in law wants to have her evaluated, because she is an accident waiting to happen. It’s a mess.

@lasma you’ll appreciate this. After my father in law had his mishap, and needed to get a new car, both sons and his wife, and the car salesman, made a couple test drives with father in law driving. Insane. After the new car road tests, the salesman, told my husband that father in law drove with his left foot always pushing on the brakes somewhat, and his right foot controlling the gas. So he was using both feet to operate brake and gas. Family in denial …

SJCM, there is always complaints about sleep. This is a very difficult area to assess, as there is always naps in from of the TV to consider, lack of O2 or CPAP, and lack of exercise. In addition, they may try to go to sleep at 6 PM and then complain they only sleep until 2 AM, and refuse to change their schedule. There are dementia units I read about- cannot really where , where they stay up at night and have activities and sleep in the daytime. I do not have experience with melatonin for sleep. Fall risk is also a huge issue with meds.
I try to change sleep hygiene.
Regarding driving my stance is clear. I do not mind being the bad guy. With my own family, I do not mind being the bad guy. Anyway you look at it public safety is more important. If one is worrying then one is probably right to worry.

I was able to “finesse” my father with early dementia into selling his car when they moved to AL near my family, and they had assurances that I would get them anywhere they needed to go. Phew. I would have endured rage to use what I knew to prevent a disaster, but didn’t need to.

A problem with no driving is that for many, without the car, they fear major changes are necessary in their living situation or life style. This is often true. At the same time, the inability to safely navigate a vehicle may be an indicator that more assistance is needed. It could be an opportunity to map out a constructive way forward.

Kudos for helping to keep your elder and their communities safe.

I’m so thankful it was not a major ordeal getting my mom to stop driving. I think the key is having alternative transportation options. Telling someone to stop driving, but then not having a way to go to church, grocery shopping, etc would be miserable to anyone. If there is anything I have learned lately is it is so difficult to have to depend on others for daily needs.

I feel I’m in exactly the opposite problem as most of you. My mom does not have dementia, her body is completely falling apart. I don’t know what’s worse.

Yes, figuring out what is going to take the place of the car is one of the many difficult things about this. Because, let’s face it, in terms of convenience and independence, nothing can really replace the car. Plus, it means the adult child has to become much more involved in the parent’s daily life, which is time-consuming and energy-sucking, and just something that nobody wants. And, for us anyway, it was the watershed moment when we went from being five independent adults to three grown children looking after their two aging parents. The driving conversation was hard enough on its own terms, but the subtext was “You can no longer run your own lives” which was even harder. It was an acknowledgment that our relationships were going to change from this day forward.

Mil broker her hip last week, they kept her in the hospital overnight and did not operate since she is not ambulatory. After 2 days home she was back in the ER with unmanageable pain. We got a text that day right when we had departed on a camping trip where we would have no cell access, so we hung about for a couple of hours to see what would happen. FIL, who asked us to call, refused to talk on the phone, it was incredibly stressful. We talked with BIL & SIL & got medically employed DD involved. We had to make out way back out to cell service two afternoons, DD went way above and beyond any reasonable expectation & helped. We still have not talked to FIL, leaving messages, but I think she is having surgery this week.
DD thinks she will not leave SNF because FIL will not do 24-7 care at home (we have been fighting that for over two years) and are hoping we can get him to realize this and move to the independent living level at the place locally he likes & we will find a SNF for MIL. Pretty much, it’s a hot mess.

Mil broke her hip last week, they kept her in the hospital overnight and did not operate since she is not ambulatory. After 2 days home she was back in the ER with unmanageable pain. We got a text that day right when we had departed on a camping trip where we would have no cell access, so we hung about for a couple of hours to see what would happen. FIL, who asked us to call, refused to talk on the phone, it was incredibly stressful. We talked with BIL & SIL & got medically employed DD involved. We had to make out way back out to cell service two afternoons, DD went way above and beyond any reasonable expectation & helped. We still have not talked to FIL, leaving messages, but I think she is having surgery this week.
DD thinks she will not leave SNF because FIL will not do 24-7 care at home (we have been fighting that for over two years) and are hoping we can get him to realize this and move to the independent living level at the place locally he likes & we will find a SNF for MIL. Pretty much, it’s a hot mess.

That sounds like a really rough week for your family, @somemom :frowning:

Sorry for you, @somemom.

I’m irked because my sibs are all shirking to our parents. I have 6 sibs. H is the only one who helps them with tech and tree trimming. I helped my mom toss the 3 dozen slacks that have NO elastic and are a serious trip hazard. One of ky sisters just laughed when I explained the problem and said, yea, they aren’t dressing well, the other said she would help “someday.”

Oh well, I sleep well at night. It’s sad that they don’t choose to help when our folks did so much for all of us when we needed it.