<p>Bay: I cannot imagine what that experience was like and I am sorry you went through that but did you ever wonder WHY you survived?</p>
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I think I agree with you; however, I would suggest that one does not need to believe in God for god to exist; neither does one need to believe in ethics for ethics to exist: like all things, they either do or they do not exist with absolutely no dependence upon any individual’s belief or comprehension.</p>
<p>I believe both are independent of belief…like gravity, or love.</p>
<p>.</p>
<p>At this point, I don’t believe in the God I was raised to believe in, nor the one that heads the Christian cult that I broke free of a number of years ago. In the intervening time, I have come to re-examine everything I “thought” I knew, and have come to the realization that I really KNOW nothing. This makes me sad sometimes, as there is great comfort—heck, even a kind of euphoria— in the feeling that one has all the answers tied up in a nice tidy package. Unfortunately, letting go of the delusion ushered in a very unsettling sense of being somewhat adrift when it comes to dealing with life’s challenges because “THE” answers are no longer within easy reach.</p>
<p>Now, having said that, it doesn’t mean I don’t have any beliefs. I believe that there is a “Prime Mover” so-to-speak, or perhaps more than one, that is responsible for setting the universe in motion (though there is that sticky chicken and egg conundrum: Who/what created the Prime Mover/s?) I believe there is true Good and true Evil, in the spiritual sense of the word, though as to whether one might accurately call them “God” and “The Devil”, I now have serious doubts. I believe there are opposite forces/entities that work mightily, one against the other, and that much of what happens in the world is a result of which of these forces wins a particular fight. </p>
<p>I know what I “hope”. I hope there is an all powerful, benevolent God that knows all, and whose wisdom is infinite, and whose ultimate plan is the perfection of all the beings of the Universe. I hope that when I die, I’ll have a spirit that will continue to exist in peace, and that it will move on to a place/plane/space where I will be given the answers to all of life’s troubling questions.</p>
<p>“Besides, you are in grand company, if not the brute majority itself: there is, after all, scarcely a dime’s worth of difference between the harsh ignorance of the fundamentalist secular/atheist and the harsh ignorance of the fundamentalist Christian/Muslim/Jew etc–they are both, in their frustration, kicking the same empty can; arguing night after night with their smelly sock puppet.”</p>
<p>LOL—Dorothy P, that one made me laugh out loud. Simply brilliant—and so true! Thanks!</p>
<p>The previous responses are mostly, i.m.o., based on a pretty childish understanding of God,</p>
<p>By * childish* do you mean " egocentric, immature and impatient?“, or do you mean " imaginative, open minded and delightful”?</p>
<p>poetsheart,
many “believers” admit to being more “hopers” or even skeptical believers. So I’m glad you brought that up, because belief is not the same as dogma (which I think too many people equate it with). There’s a more tentative quality to it. Even the most faith-filled believers have episodes & cycles in their lives when their belief or beliefs are in jeopardy, are tested, are questioned. I actually think that often the more tentative believers are the ones that are quite open to the influence of God, because they are listening rather than talking or telling.</p>
<p>Speaking of poets and hearts, I’ve thought for many years that artists – even those who attest to “devout atheism” – are often close to God. They dwell in that land of creativity which in biblical poetics is one of the descriptors of God.</p>
<p>Answering Post 45:
egocentric, immature, and impatient. (And expecting others to take care of you or take responsibliity for you.) Those are qualities of child-ish-ness.</p>
<p>The definition of child-<em>like</em> is innocent, open, etc.</p>
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<p>Simply put, the Abrahamic God</p>
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<p>And how does the evening news disprove God?</p>
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<p>So you are saying that both theism and atheism are equally irrational?</p>
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<p>God is defined as the Creator of the universe.</p>
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<p>Something does not come from nothing, I agree. But that doesn’t mean a deity is responsible for the universe. There universe can be the result of infinite sequences. </p>
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<p>Sorry, but that isn’t a convincing justification. Hindus experience Brahma, Greeks experiences Zeus, and some “experienced” aliens. One has to be right, making the others delusional.</p>
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<p>It can be countered with arguments like “when I was saved from drowning in the sea I knew there was a God.”</p>
<p>I believe god just IS…god is the lifeforce that exists in everything from the smallest atom to the highest life form. And humans can choose - or not choose - to experience god in many different ways, whether in religious worship, meditation, near-death experiences, even climbing a mountain…</p>
<p>I do not believe that it is possible to meaningfully discuss the existence or non-existence of a God, and I think that it is a pointless endeavor. I feel that “God” (as a word or concept) is generally undefined, ill-explained, and meaningless. The whole concept is unverifiable and nonfalseifiable, anyway, so I don’t see why we should talk about it.</p>
<p>Atheism and theism are NOT equally irrational. While both cannot be proved, that doesn’t mean that to believe one is equally irrational as believing in another.</p>
<p>For example, if I were to say that I believe there is a blue checkered teacup and saucer orbiting Pluto at this moment, most people would rightfully call me slightly… odd, if not mentally unbalanced. But why? No one can prove it’s not true, so I’m as justified in believing that it is as anyone else is.</p>
<p>The fact is, God is a stupendously unlikely proposition - much more unlikely than the alternatives. (On an aside, thanks to Dawkins for the inspiration and the meat of several of these arguments… in fact, if anyone would like a much more comprehensive argument, get Dawkins’s The God Delusion - it’s good, and if I were to keep writing this argument I’d more or less be plagiarizing, so I’ll stop)</p>
<p>On a final note though, people need to be careful when talking about God. Many people here seem to be saying they believe in a vague, ill-defined deity-type figure - or even just some kind of force that governs the universe. That’s not really God in the sense that almost anyone talks about it, and that belief doesn’t make you a Theist. It makes you a Deist. I think limiting the use of the term God to the Abrahamic God would be useful here, since otherwise for all anyone knows I could be referring to my computer monitor when I say God.</p>
<p>Thank you for the atheistic reduction of God into a “blue checkered tea cup.”</p>
<p>Ah, I knew a full-blown thread was coming.</p>
<p>WannaTransfer: what do you mean by “a result of infinite sequences”?</p>
<p>I’d still like to know what other folks mean by “believe” and “in”.</p>
<p>Myself? I go by experience.</p>
<p>“Myself? I go by experience.”</p>
<p>So do I. (Point made earlier.) </p>
<p>I’m always amused by people who require others to “prove” the existence of God. How you do “prove” experience? You don’t. But “I” don’t require “you” to believe something you yourself have not experienced.</p>
<p>urd0rkk: Don’t try to be more obtuse than strictly necessary. That was an example used to demonstrate a point (thus the “for example”). Clearly I don’t actually believe that God is a blue checkered teacup. Use your imagination, the meaning of that example isn’t exactly elusive.</p>
<p>I believe in God, and his son, Jesus Christ. I am in awe of His grace, and more resilient as a result of holding tight to my faith during some very horrendous experiences I have survived.</p>
<p>He isn’t a puppet master. Bad things happen. For me, that only strengthens my relationship with him, because with God, all things are possible. I have so many examples of His divine intervention.</p>
<p>loved post 49, too. :)</p>
<p>…and speaking of life & its forces, it’s counter-intuiitive for me to believe that perfectly ordered organic systems such as are found in nature (the gradual, unfolding, “time-released” development of each species, and each individual within the species, how each creature is “programmed” invisibly to behave in particular ways, how organic systems work together) – that all these just “happened” spontaneously. It’s “natural” (intuitive) for me to believe, without intellectual contortion, that the wholeness & unity of that is a reflection of an encompassing, originating Unity who is God.</p>
<p>yes, I believe, and it has nothing to do with brainwashing of any kind. If anything, I was brainwashed into atheism from birth. :)</p>
<p>I believe.</p>
<p>I am a Pastafarian, a member of the Church of FSM:</p>
<p><a href=“http://flyingspaghettimonster.org/[/url]”>http://flyingspaghettimonster.org/</a></p>
<p>Even if you do not believe in FSM, He believes in you. He loves you too, but as a nonbeliever you will not be allowed into Pastafarian heaven.</p>
<p>I believe.</p>