Parents: Do you believe in God?

Parent Cafe
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<p>farawayplaces…oh yes…God definetly has a sense of humor, he would have to in order to have created some of us. I can imagine he often scratches his head in dismay wondering what in the world he was thinking when he made man…and woman. </p>

<p>I mean everything was going along just fine in that beautiful Garden of Eden of his, he could take his daily walks and he could eat of the fruit if he were hungry, he could reach out and touch all the beautiful flowers and trees, but no he had to take it one step further and complicate his life and bring man into the picture. I’m sure there are days that he ponders that decision, especially because he is God and he is all-knowing and omnipotent and surely knew better.</p>

<p>But…with all that he had and all that he is he was lonely and even though he doesn’t need us, he created us out of love because he wanted us. Every single person that walks this earth he knew before he created them…that thought always amazes me…how could someone know you before you existed? He did…and it is with the eyes of a child that we choose to see and believe and whether we believe or not doesn’t change a thing about the Truth.</p>

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<p>faraway places,</p>

<p>I’ll answer your question the way Dorothy did. (“Innumerable”). And I live in a region where it may be more socially the norm to be unreligious or irreligious than to be a believer or most any sort.</p>

<p>But that’s not what bothers me, and if I disliked that enough, over the advantages of living where I live, I would leave the area. What bothers me in any location or group is “persecution” from self-defined skeptics/atheists who stake claim to intellectualism as exclusively and “fundamentally” as the fundamentalist relgious believers lay claims to the supremacy of their views(at above funeral, wherever). </p>

<p>It is narrow-minded (non-intellectual) to be unaware that all the major faiths with a long history have had at least some great intellectuals who have described & philosophized about the conceptual basis of the belief system. Great opposing minds can differ with those concepts, and beliefs. But those would not necessarily be superior opposing minds.</p>

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…and all this time I’d heard it was about oil and American hegemony. Haliburton, et al.</p>

<p>So you say it’s a Christian v Muslim dustup, eh --interesting read.</p>

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<p>edad: you are exactly right. Religion has and always will play a role in the Middle East conflicts and this was foretold in the Bible. There are many different beliefs going on in that region and they will fight til the end to protect their God and their beliefs. We are told to keep an eye on the Middle East because what happens there affects us all…eventually.</p>

105

<p>If you read widely you will discover that Hitler, not unlike Bin Laden, perverted & manipulated religion in service of his own psychoses, which included megalomania. And this proves what, now? That all religions are evil or at least dangerous?</p>

<p>Poverty, desperation, mental illness, political goals, and the absence of an internal moral compass – or any of those in combination certainly – are more underlying causes of evil, including violence, than religion per se. (For example, those who join cults have some serious psychological, um, challenges or deficits.) Hitler was into cults, too, by the way. People use convenient rationales & institutional supports for their personal & political ambitions. As others have pointed out, atheists are not beyond doing so, either – or using a set of political beliefs with the same absolutism, orthodoxy, & fervor that a believer is capable of.</p>

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<p>Um, Hitler did nothing in the name of religion except kill 6 million people who shared nothing but a religion.</p>

<p>I still don’t mind religious people though or need to try to get them to change their minds.</p>

107

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I completely agree with this. </p>

<p>

a horrible truth that does not contradict your first premise but, rather, affirms it.</p>

108

<p>Hitler in fact contorted his own inaccurate view of Christianity to support his deterministic political agenda of “purified” National Socialism. Further, not unlike what I alluded to in my previous post, he is an example of those who substitute or equate a political crusade with a religious one (i.e., the campaign having the same fervor, moral commitment, as a religious following). </p>

<p>It’s the behavior of fanaticism & adopted/reinterpreted absolutism that is chosen, not the mainstream, orthodox core of a religious system. (Refashioning a belief system in one’s own image, to one’s own ends.)</p>

<p>Significant difference.</p>

109

<p>The nice thing about beliefs is that they don’t need to make any sense. If a belief is based on faith and not logic, how can we decide which beliefs are contorted?</p>

110

<p>No single events made me lose faith in religion, a whole series of realizations that belief in a god and religion does not make a person any better, but more often worse towards others- bigotry comes to mind, along with too many other negatives; as well as realizing I could not accept Jewish creation (and therefore Christian) mythology or any other religion’s tenants. I wish I could be included in all the social life religions give, but the price of admission (personal dishonesty or having to put up with false beliefs) isn’t worth it; I sure wish people would do as many social activities outside the framework of religion- being excluded from the good times is bothersome, when most of what is done has nothing to do with religion. And no one wants someone to tell them their Sunday social club is wrong (even the various churches consider the others to be wrong…), I’m not popular for telling the truth, it makes people uncomfortable to be challenged. I’m using this forum to vent about the cruelty of people who claim to be better than others- yes, all of you who think your beliefs will get you into heaven whereas the nonbelivers won’t… Study sociology and psychology, understand why you use religion as your crutch. It doesn’t work for everyone.</p>

<p>Scanning the posts following my last one I find that, like in other threads that have discussed religion, most people are still stuck in their JudeoChristian/ European boxes and have no concepts outside those mythologies. So many people presume the world should believe as they have been brought up to believe. No concept of Asian origin religions or others that challenge concepts they take for granted. I doubt any of the god accepting posters ever examined all the possibilities. As I said before, no one is going to change their mind based on these postings, I reserve the right to be as smug and arrogant in my beliefs as those who think the are humbly obeying a god’s will… End of discussion.</p>

<p>PS- Isn’t it interesting how much time can be wasted playing with words?</p>

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<p>…well, how did you decide who to marry, edad?</p>

<p>–please tell me it wasn’t based on precise logic; but then, if not, how did you know which of our gender was the right one for you? Don’t tell me you did it for love. How foolish is that.
Where’s the science in it? I need facts, damit!</p>

<p>Then, in all the correspondence above, substitute ‘faith’ for ‘love’ and you will likely find, as I do, that nothing changes. We might as well argue over why someone loves the person they do.</p>

<p>It neither offers nor needs an excuse.</p>

<p>It’s all very human …and for that reason, very great! Even divine.</p>

<p>

…think again, Wis. I’d be happy to have an exchange over the extent of our two different experiences with Asian/eastern religion. Or would you prefer to concede the point?</p>

<p>.</p>

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<p>How do I decide? Partly based on logic, partly on emotion. When it comes to picking a mate, we know there is some pretty strong biology involved in pair bonding overlaid with some very complex human behavior.</p>

<p>I feel like you are trying to throw dust in the air. Clearly many wars have had a religious basis. And yes some wars have had economic or political causes. I wonder if we could call the Inquisition a war or should we just consider that a case of a highly religious society acting on its beliefs?</p>

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<p>God. Jesus. Holy Spirit. Angels. Saints. Imaginary friends? OK by me–I need all the friends I can get.</p>

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<p>A large percentage of the population also believes in ghosts and the presence of aliens from other planets.</p>

115

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<p>I don’t know edad, to me, wars are about power and wealth. </p>

<p>If a society is religious, and almost all pre-communist societies were, religion will be the narrative; if not, something else will justify the power grab.</p>

<p>The influence of religion has waned in modern times…has war diminished in its wake?</p>

<p>In this I would direct your attention to WWI, WWII …which is to say the most horrific and global wars in human history —secular governments, one and all; human atrocity and inhumanity, the same increase. All the while the secular power and influnce of religion was diminishing.</p>

<p>USSR
China
Nazi Germany</p>

<p>all secular, all horrific.</p>

<p>Who’s throwing dust?</p>

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<p>Absolutely. And it’s a weird stretch of logic to portray Hitler’s conquest as being in the name of religion–ethnic cleansing is more like it–or anyone who didn’t fit his definition of the proper Aryan German–Jews (religious or not), gypsies, gays, and yes, members of the religious establishment who spoke out against him.</p>

<p>Do I think that means that atheists are evil? No, of course not. In fact, the most ethical person i have ever known was unreligious. I know she’s hanging in Heaven now, though, whateve it’s like. </p>

<p>It is short-sighted to assume fundamentalist type religion or dreadful acts in the name of religion are representative of all beliefs, just as it would be short-sighted for me to assume that all the power-mad atheists listed above represent the average atheist or agnostic.</p>

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<p>Fundingfather:</p>

<p>You do not read closely enough. You say that my remarks following the FMS link were offensive. Well, I repeated EXACTLY what had been said in two earlier posts (16 & 33) by a Christian, but substituted my own “god” to make a point: A poster wrote that “God loves you even if you don’t love him,” and “You won’t go to heaven with me.” </p>

<p>Glad you agree that that kind of prosyletizing is offensive!!</p>

118

<p>I still don’t know what all this “believe” “in” stuff you are all writing about is. What does it consist of?</p>

<p>(Neither Mao nor Hitler nor Stalin nor Pol Pot nor Bill Clinton nor Idi Amin nor Pope Clement nor Martin Luther nor Jesus nor Muhammed and etc. killed much of anyone. People who “believed in” them did. That’s among the reasons I want to know what “believe” “in” is made of.)</p>

119

<p>I have never been a particularly religious person in my life, I have gone to church on occassion and taught my children about christianity and taken them to church on occassion. Here is what happened to me:</p>

<p>I was in the middle of one of the most horrible events I could never even imagine would occur in my life when I was suddenly and unexpectedly enveloped in a warm, blinding light and have never known such peace could exist. I knew immediately it was God. That really happenned and I just thought I’d share it. Take it as you want.</p>

120

<p>edad,
when people refer to a system or set of beliefs, they are referring to what is “traditional” (the continuous threads of the religion practiced over time), and sometimes additionally (later) some kind of formal codification of those views. I agree, they remain beliefs nevertheless. The importance of at least an informal continuity to them is that they tie a community together, providing a source of strength & identity to a community – the basis for its worship services, if it has those, for its moral guidance, etc. That is what tends to separate a religion from a cult, for example. So when an individual subverts a communally held, morally sound (even if not “logical”) group of beliefs to an immoral end, it makes no sense to blame the “religion” for the source of the immorality. (That’s illogical ;))</p>

<p>I was also about to say something similar to Dorothy’s post, with a different emphasis.</p>

<p>I have no way to “prove” that giving birth, falling in love, are ecstatic – even religious – experiences. And my love for my certain family members is not always logical, lol. But I wonder if that means that my love doesn’t exist. Hmmm.</p>

<p>I think someone mentioned earlier the difference between spirituality and religion. Lots of people have never been affiliated with a religion, yet believe in God, which was the OP’s question. I do think some people get hung up on religion which sometimes (too often?) does not serve spirituality, even when attempting earnestly to do so. I have major issues with my own Major World Religion, so I promise I won’t Go There. (Separate rant!)</p>

<p>Also, people too often confuse the purported practitioners of a religion with the beliefs themselves. So when you find that 75% of a “religious” community is shallow, hypocritical, or worse, the tendency is to condemn the religion. And why would you do that? Do you think that “the religion” is a separate force, power, acting unilaterally? Or do you think that (their) God has invaded, as it were, those people, possessed them, and is controlling their actions? (Think about how illogical that sounds.)</p>

<p>Like probably everyone on this thread, I’ve met a number of “non-believers” whose lifelong actions fit what my religion defines as sainthood. And I’ve met the reverse (religious authority figures who are evil). But as to following a core of beliefs, I have also never met a person who truly adheres in practice to the “traditional” (commonly held) tenets of his or her religion, that is not also an outstandingly moral human being. </p>

<p>For some people, religion helps to support their spirituality; for others, it is a hindrance.</p>

<p>I believe that the institution of democracy is a great thing, yet hardly all of our own leaders, historically, have been models of the democratic ideal. Should I scrap my faith in democracy? I hope not. I hope that I continue to hold it up as an <em>ideal</em>, as something to guide my life. I look for candidates to support who most represent that set of ideals as I understand them. Because some leaders have been corrupt, some stupid or incompetent, does not condemn the institution or the ideals of democracy.</p>

<p>sax,
that’s a beautiful story (and I don’t mean fictional!). I totally believe you.</p>