@“Snowball City” commuters is the first student group that comes to mind. If a student lives at home and is doing the bulk of the writing at home, it would be much easier to ask mom or dad to look over a paper while writing it at home than it would be to go to the writing center. Similarly, a nontraditional age older adult student might feel more comfortable asking a spouse or SO for help than going to a writing center staffed mostly by young students (though in that case of course it’s not likely a parent helping out).
Students with social anxiety issues might prefer asking someone they know and trust for help rather than a stranger in the writing center; if such students only have so much they can tolerate in a day, they should be able to use their discretion and seek help from a comfortable source when needed.
And ethical honest mature students should not be treated like children by anyone. If they want someone to provide appropriate editing assistance, why should anyone care who that person is?
A student with social anxiety should coordinate with the disabilities office. Perhaps they could meet consistently with one tutor and develop a relationship.
For the other people the argument seems to be “convenience” which I don’t hold with. My kid sets up appointments during the day, between classes. So can everyone else.
At my kid’s college the tutors are adults, not 20 year olds.
I do know that writing center in the schools i am most familiar with have a process by which the class/professor is noted and notified that the student sought assistance. There is no similar process for editing by parents. Also, writing center staff is trained in the type of assistance to provide with no personal vested interest.
"it would be much easier to ask mom or dad to look over a paper while writing it at home than it would be to go to the writing center. Similarly, a nontraditional age older adult student might feel more comfortable asking a spouse or SO for help than going to a writing center staffed mostly by young students "
Guess what? College isn’t about the easier or more comfortable way. It’s about learning and growing, academically and personally. Resources are provided by the school to deal with all these issues. Falling back on mom and dad’s editing skills just isn’t needed or warranted.
Before all the electronic means of communication, generations of college students have managed just fine without parental interference in their academic lives.
I have written papers on a subject my mom is very familiar with. I finished the paper (hours before the deadline) and asked her for advice. We sat down with each other, I printed in out, and she caught some small errors I missed. She also pointed out some things she thought I needed to explain a bit more. In my mind, that is totally appropriate. I see a difference between sitting down and going over something with a parent to put final touches on a paper compared to writing something, emailing it to your parents to edit, and then submitting what they gave you.
I had a very interesting experience related to this, actually… In my composition class, I have my students submit their rough drafts on Google Docs, where their classmates and I can comment and provide feedback. It’s often a very connected process where I’ll be replying to students’ comments to each other, they’ll reply back to me, etc.
Well, since I get emails all the time when people reply to me/resolve my comments, I saw that someone who was presumably my student’s father/relative was interacting with the paper, too – adding comments of his own, replying to mine, replying to the other students’ comments, etc. The relative wasn’t “writing the paper” for the student. He was pointing out what wasn’t clear, fixing some grammatical mistakes, making some formatting suggestions, etc.
Is this a “bad” thing? I’m inclined to think not, but only because I could see the extent of the interaction. As to the student sending their paper to mom to proofread/rewrite sentences, I guess I won’t see that same interaction.
D took a writing intensive class with a professor who allowed her to send him drafts which he’d return with comments. She’d rewrite then turn them in - they did that all semester, with most of the papers. That was something he offered to do for anyone in the class but the trick was to be on a certain schedule - basically have the paper done early. She preferred that anyway so it worked well.
She still LOVES that professor and says he really taught her to write.
One of my favorite college profs was a writing instructor who helped write better in our i.e. Style instead of HIS style. I nominated him for a teaching award.
Caught up with kiddo #2 this evening who has a 20 page term paper due next week. Kiddo was very upbeat and walking across campus when I got the call. Had just left a 2 hour meeting going over the rough draft with the professor who liked it, made a few suggestions on things to expand on and rearrange for clarity. Plus, they spent a little time just chatting and talking about my kids’ plans/major/stuff in general. Another really positive interaction with a professor that has developed into a really nice prof/student relationship. They’ve met before for lunch and will be having dinner together next week. Another reminder to me that if I was filling that role as editor/sounding board for my kids, this type of relationship might not have developed.
I would think that an ethical, mature student would make it a point to become aware of the restrictions they are working under, and follow them.
How in the world is expecting someone to follow a very specific set of rules treating them like children?? I would think that sending them to their parents for handholding would be better described that way, actually.
We didn’t read, much less edit or proofread those HS papers. (Ditto for college.) Our policy was their teachers evaluated our “unvarnished” kids with no privileged-kid parental “grooming”. Our kids are getting their educations, for better or worse, and live with the consequences of their work effort. I’m disappointed to hear parents speak of doing this for their HS children, having heard the stories of parental all-nighters prepping and fixing their kids’ academic work. I’m appalled if they’re still doing it for their college kids, but now it still happens. But People, it’s cheating, plain and simple, particularly when said parent is a professional editor. LOL. Where/when does the coddling stop? Will these parents take the MCAT or LSAT for their stellar child? Or go to the job interviews to make sure “it’s done right”?
My mom edited my english/lit papers in high school, from 9th to about halfway through 11th grade. Very vicious editing with a red pen, poor thing looked like it had been stabbed to death. For me, working through the editing process with her was the main way that I learned to write. As my writing process matured, eventually I didn’t need it.
If you are looking at an academic career, learning to work well with an editor/co-writer is essential. I’ve seen many undergrad students just starting out in research give papers to their advisors, and then be shocked/terrified/offended at how the prof (metaphorically) ripped it to shreds. Learning not to take that stuff personally is a critical skill.
@raneck I helped my D’s because I am a reading/ writing teacher and they were not getting the help they needed from anyone else. They both had the ability to be good writers and their writing was certainly adequate. I worked with them so that reached their potential. I did not write their papers, but I encouraged them to grow.
Grades did not really enter into the equation. I worked with them because I wanted them to be good writers and clear communicators, skills that are essential in both academia and the business world. I had the time, the desire and the ability to help them and so I did.
I never asked for them to show me their work–they came to me when they needed guidance and a second set of eyes. It was far from coddling. Without doubt, they worked harder on papers they handed to me and got much harsher input.
In time, their writing greatly improved and they have thanked me again and again for my help.
“And ethical honest mature students should not be treated like children by anyone. If they want someone to provide appropriate editing assistance, why should anyone care who that person is?”
As @dfbdfb said, going to your parents for help is more child-like than following the rules you are given.
I’ve been out of school a LONG time. Now that I’m in the “real world” as they say, my job comes with a number of rules that don’t always really make a lot of sense to me in any particular situtation. For most of them, I can see a general reason for the rule, but in practice some rules don’t make sense all the time. Doesn’t matter–I still have to follow them.
So yeah, some parents might be quite able to offer suggestions and minor edits w/o crossing the line. But if it’s against the rules, it’s against the rules. The fact that the rule might not make complete sense in your particular situation, or that if everyone was llike you, there would’nt need to be a rule, doesn’t mean that it’s OK to ignore the rule.
I want my kids, as they go through the teen years, to become LESS dependent on me. Even if it’s not something that is a problem for me to do/help with, I often want them to go somewhere else for help. They need to learn to rely on their own resources, they need to get perspectives from people who are not their parents, etc.
Putting aside questions about academic honesty, how often are the parents the best people to be providing advice? Most of my professional writing falls into either very technical engineering papers or short 1-2 page executive memos of the style @prof2dad referred to in an earlier discussion of business writing. Neither style of writing necessarily matches the types of assignments and the style of writing expected by the English department. I’m not sure I would be of much use except for proofreading of spelling and grammar.
You know, my kid wanted to bake a chicken the other day and called me. I said “go out. Find a chicken. Kill it. Eat it.” How will our kids ever survive if we let them buy chickens killed by other people and wrapped in plastic and sold in markets…?
I wonder if we don’t obsess over the wrong things. Do you really think your adult child who has gotten into college and would like some input on a paper they wrote - either to make sure the grammar is correct or the logic is clear or even that the investigation seems deep enough - is going to be scarred for life because you, a theoretically experienced and understanding adult who knows, probably better than anyone, if your kid is really digging deep or just phoning it in, comment on their paper and points out that yeah, that’s a run-on, try a semicolon and is that REALLY what Kant is saying there?
And then the thing we’re really upset about is that other parents are bragging about their kid’s grades?
I dunno. I wish my kid would let me read their stuff more often. I find it interesting and like seeing their mind at work. But mine generally doesn’t want to hear from me. I know too well when they are phoning it in and I make them do more work. They can BS the TA easier. I should just suggest punctuation I guess.
Personally, I would be thrilled if my son would seek help from ANYONE - his prof, a TA, the writing center, a friend, or me - with his writing. Or any other class he’s having trouble with. He writes OK, but there is lots of room for improvement in spelling, grammar, and overall structure/style. His content is fine, but he does not express it concisely or clearly. Lately he’s been struggling with a math class but insists that meeting with the prof or TA “won’t help.” He says he understands the material, but he’s obviously making mistakes, because his grades are not great.
He seems to have no interest in meeting with any of his professors outside of class, or having these great networking/bonding experiences that you all mention. Sigh.
However, aside from making the occasional suggestion that there are resources out there (which falls on deaf ears), it’s not my place to interfere. If he asked for my help, I do think I’d give it (help, not doing the work for him).
I am always flattered when my daughters want me to read something.
I am a professional editor, so that probably has something to do with them wanting my opinion in this small, minute area of life (lol). I try to be gentle, and not be as brutal as I would be if I were looking at a colleague’s work. But I am paid to look for grammar, clarity and content - why wouldn’t they take advantage of that?
Part of the word “appropriate” is “who that person is.”
Some groups are deemed inappropriate for certain services. You don’t go to your parent for a proctology exam, even if the parent is the world’s most renowned proctologist. You go to someone else. It’s a boundary that we don’t cross. Similarly we don’t go to a parent to be a therapist. We assume they’ve done enough damage already at that point.
The killing-a-chicken example is not germane unless that person’s child is attending a school that teaches butchering chickens, perhaps. There are guidelines in communities through laws and statutes about whether it’s okay to butcher chickens or other animals at home, and as it turns out, most people follow those guidelines. Not everyone, I’m sure, but most people.
Editing is not this extreme, and probably there’s a gray area here–the types of editing, content, etc. What’s at the core of this issue, however, is a child’s independence and how infantalized a parent wants the child to remain. How attached and dependent on the parent the child wishes compared with the prof or the school. My preference is that my child is an independent adult who achieves on his/her own whatever he/she achieves. There’s a scrappiness there that I want my child(ren) to have.
Administrations don’t want the child to depend on writing done by parents either. It’s worth mentioning that in cases of student academic misconduct, when it comes to light that the parents had a part in the paper in question, it just is that much worse for the student.
I’m curious as to why this kind of parent editing is even deemed a necessity at the college level? Is there something lacking in the educational system at most high schools whereby students aren’t adequately prepared to tackle college writing? (BTW I think the college testing industry does a really poor job of measuring academic writing in particular and writing in general. So much emphasis seems to be placed on formulaic writing these days vs. my own education ).
A lot of parents here have mentioned their background and expertise in writing and editing. That’s great, however, since it seems like you’ve been involved in assisting your kids throughout their education, how come it hasn’t helped them enough to be weaned off it by the college years? Is it truly a necessity by then or a comfortable crutch on both sides, feeling there is a need and feeling needed?
My oldest D applied this year for top MBA schools through a scholarship program. If she won a scholarship, it would mean free tuition for a full-time MBA. Approximate value=$145,000.
As part of the process, D applied and was accepted to a national program that supports woman and minorities as they put together their applications. They provide mentoring services which included extensive help with essay writing and interviewing. Her essays were reviewed and edited by her personsal mentor, a panel of admission people, as well as having peer reviews. In the end, my D was left with a lot of input (sometimes contradictory) about what to say and how to say it in order to present herself as meeting the mission statement of the organization sponsoring the scholarship and meeting the criteria of the schools she was applying to. But beyond that, she wanted to maintain her own voice and present herself truthfully. She welcomed my input in the final stages, because I knew her best and was able to help her maintain her individuality and voice in her essays.
As a matter of fact, the program encouraged input from people who knew the students.
The scholarship foundation encouraged students to have this extensive support system. It took a lot of work and a lot of rewrites. Nobody wanted to see the applicant’s independent, untouched work. They wanted a fully polished, ready to take on the world, finished product. They took the same approach for resumes and interviewing techniques.
And yes, kids who sought out and were accepted by these programs have a real advantage. And that is the point of these programs–to groom leaders who will be successful and who will, in turn, mentor others.
In the end, D was offered two free tuition scholarships–one at Stern, the second at Kelley.
And the process continues as she enters the next phase–summer internship applications.
The “my kid could do better, but I won’t get involved” attitude was certainly not the encouraged approach.
