<p>Ivys and elite lacs, as a rule, do not give merit aid, although most will give aid that leaves you paying only your EFC. Not everyone can afford the formula’s EFC, but it can be less than a public university–in or out of state. That said, merit aid can make it possible to pay less than the EFC.</p>
<p>I know the following Elite LAC’s give merit:</p>
<p>Emory- Emory scholars
Duke- Robertson scholar
Vanderbilt ( is this termed LAC? ) -Cornelius
Washington and Lee - Johnson scholar</p>
<p>^ yep- some are on our list along with many others. Thanks!</p>
<p>Also Davidson-Belk Scholar
Washington University (don’t know the name but there are a number of full scholarship awards)</p>
<p>University of Chicago has some (very little) merit aid as well. But for all of the T25 schools that DO offer merit aid, it’s for very, very few students. And in many cases for families with incomes in the $100K-$175K range, especially with more than one kid in college, the need-based aid at the very large endowment schools will be more likely and more generous than merit aid. YMMV, run the NPC, etc. . . .</p>
<p>We were surprised at what counted for income for us and what did not at the end of the day.</p>
<p>We’ve just returned from our final trip of the summer (visiting D’12 who is working in NYC this summer) and in keeping with the rest of the summer, had to fit in one more college visit (to Columbia). It’s amazing how many more families there are visiting schools at the end of July when compared with beginning of June. It was standing room only in the info session.</p>
<p>I think D is now completely aware of her various curricular options (open curriculum, distribution requirements, core curriculum, odd engineering requirements). She is surprisingly open to all of that, and responding more to student excitement/engagement than anything else (which means that she’s going to need to make visits during the school year, but perhaps not until after acceptances). It’s going to be an interesting journey.</p>
<p>IJD, sounds like you are getting a lot out of your visits! I hope the same will be true for my D.</p>
<p>I think the time is fast-approaching for me to make a spreadsheet of schools, scholarships offered, etc. And I hate excel, but I need to figure out a way to organize all of this!</p>
<p>School starts here in two weeks from tomorrow. The summer has flown by!</p>
<p>School does not start here until the second week in September, which gives me more time to enjoy the summer, or more time to stress…I am starting to get a bit nervous. I have a notebook that I use to keep notes on various schools and scholarships, but I think it’s time for me to come up with a better system as well. I was a little taken back just now when I told somebody that we were visiting UPitt at the end of the summer. The person commented " isn’t she better than that?" On the one hand it was a compliment to my daughter, while on the other hand it was a big insult to a school that she may attend. I did not know how to react. I decided that from now on I am keeping my mouth shut. I think it’s time to read that “just smile and nod” thread again.</p>
<p>I’ve been keeping a master list, just because, but D is the one keeping notes on schools.</p>
<p>One cool thing: D’s grandfather (H’s father) is a Columbia alum. He started there somewhat on the young side during WW2, and they were thrilled to have him because everyone over 18 was being drafted. After some period of time, he left college and enlisted in order to take advantage of the GI bill, and then after serving returned and finished his degree(s). It was great fun hearing <em>him</em> talk about his experiences with the core curriculum in the 1940’s.</p>
<p>Speaking of Columbia, great obit in the Times about James Gordon who as a graduate student there in 1953 developed the MASER–the precursor of the Laser–with his faculty mentor, Charles Townes. He went on to a distinguished career at Bell Labs.</p>
<p>Serendipity enters. He was an undergrad at MIT, but was rejected for grad school there so–“fortunately as it turned out”–went to Columbia where he met Townes. </p>
<p>Considered a genius who should have won the Nobel, Gordon "liked to wear his raccoon coat, sit on his front porch and smoke a Meerschaum pipe. One time, his wife recalled, his hair was mussed, and she asked him, “Who do you think you are, Einstein?”</p>
<p>“I’m closer than most people,” he answered.</p>
<p><a href=“The New York Times - Breaking News, US News, World News and Videos”>The New York Times - Breaking News, US News, World News and Videos;
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<p>Color me cynical, but I think the scores, etc., are reported the way they are on purpose, so that the clustering of high scores hides the fact that the reachiest schools <em>aren’t</em> doing admissions by-the-numbers. I doubt it’s just coincidence or ease-of-bookkeeping that explains why the reporting bins on the Common Data Set are 500-599, 600-699, 700-800, and rank bins are top tenth, top quarter, top half. The schools don’t want to show a finer-grained breakdown, because admissions <em>aren’t</em> predictable from the stats.</p>
<p>Everything I read (e.g., adcom officer posts in the CC MIT forum) points to the elite schools using ~700’s and top 10% as filter for whether a student is “good enough” to warrant further consideration. A kid needs needs to pass the filter (unless they have a huge football-star or development-with-lots-of-zeros -sized hook). However, passing the academic stats filter only gets them a good careful read of their file. They won’t actually get admitted unless they have something <em>more</em> – and that’s equally true whether they just barely squeaked through with a 2110 and 91%ile, or whether they vaulted over the line as a 2390 valedictorian. They’ll still get shunted aside unless something in their app tips them in. </p>
<p>My pet theory is that higher test scores (above 2100) are somewhat correlated with greater probability of admission, but that the relationship isn’t causative. Rather, they are both signs of some underlying factor about the kid that provides the admissions tip. Maybe she’s really verbal and can write amazing essays – by-and-by that also shows up as great CR and W scores. But what really tips her into Brown is the application essay that wows the adcomm officers, confirmed by an English teacher’s letter describing her as the new Alice Walker. Or maybe he’s got the brain of a rocket scientist – that got him 800s on his SAT subject exams, too. But what really tips him into MIT are the research papers that follow-up his IntelSTS work and the phone call from his research mentor.</p>
<p>As for the ordinary BWRKs with the 2300, straight As, half-dozen APs, and “most rigorous” checkmark? Most likely they’ll collect a bunch of Ivy rejections and wait-lists, and end up being perfectly happy and successful (possibly with a merit scholarship!) at their state flagship.</p>
<p>Although I’m still pretty much a newbie at this, I agree with your assessment mihcal1.</p>
<p>A corollary to my above theorem:</p>
<p>If your kid can confidently clear 700 per section on the SAT, any additional time spent on test-prep is wasted. It won’t buy them much (or any) extra consideration of their app. </p>
<p>Moreover, overscheduling our kids into a bazillion activities and overstretching them into too many AP classes may actually be hurting our kids’ chances, if it deprives them of the time and energy they could use to do something special. </p>
<p>Better for them to spend their time and effort on doing stuff they really love: working on their favorite ECs, socializing, and reading or writing or creating or whatever it is that really makes them tick. Because that “something special” just might be the thing that really makes their application shine.</p>
<p>Rather than chasing those last few SAT- or grade-points, we should be encouraging our kids toward self-exploration and navel-gazing introspection. Then they will hopefully make good decisions, eloquently explain themselves, and pick colleges that will really provide a good fit.</p>
<p>I agree too Mihcal. I’m very cynical about the whole process. Even so, I continue to long for more predictability knowing full well it isn’t part of our system, at least not without looking more deeply into the apps. I also wish that kids who have not yet developed socially/emotionally had a better shot at more schools–and I’m not talking Ivy!</p>
<p>I was about to go on and saw your corollary. EXACTLY. Well, except that my philosophy is that it’s better for my D to try to ignore, to the best of her ability, any thought of doing something to get her into college. It’s best for her to develop herself as she wants to develop, and into the best person she can be, whether it’s attractive to an admissions officer out there or not and it’s best for H and I to support that. This is my mantra these days as it gets harder and harder to ignore the chatter. I come here so I can avoid the talk in our school community and I can vent/talk/obsess without affecting D too much.</p>
<p>And here’s a perfect example of what Mihcal is talking about: my eldest applied to a tippy top LAC because it was reputed to have a very strong writing program and English department. She insisted that this school didn’t require test scores. Insisted. I asked her to confirm this with her guidance counselor, nagged her, begged her. She was in charge of her apps and resisted any input from H or me. She didn’t submit scores and yes, she should have. Her grades were not uniform with a lot of highs and lows. I assumed she’d be rejected or told that her application was incomplete. Not only was she admitted but the school wanted to feature her essay. Not every school cares as much about the essay but there are times when it can make the difference.</p>
<p>I absolutely agree with Michal, but unlike her, I don’t think this is being cynical, nor is it wrong! I think the kid with a real enthusiasm stands out and young adults should take this time that we as parents and society has given them to do what they really love, and develop their skills. That’s why ECs are telling, because it shows what kids are doing in the time they get to schedule, and whether this kid has interests that will fit in with an engaged college community. It’s hard at a distance to separate the “for show” and the “for real”, but consistent an enthusiastic pursuit both within and without of a school context can shine through. The kid who is excited about what he or she is doing makes for a more engaged member of the student body, at least if that’s an area that the institution values. That’s why FRC team members tend to do better at college admissions than their grades (which inevitably take a bruising during build season) would predict. Engaged and energetic high school students are likely to be engaged college students. Even if their interests completely change once they get to college.</p>
<p>So the essays matter, the ECs matter, the letters matter. Once the student has cleared the obvious hurdles.</p>
<p>I think this is a really interesting discussion, and I agree with most of it, but I have to admit that I think some kids - and maybe my D - will be penalized in some way in admissions for not taking what she “should” be taking.</p>
<p>For example, my D loves art and is good at it, but she isn’t going to pursue that as any type of degree. By taking art over some AP course, her rank will certainly suffer - and this also goes back to my question about what it takes for your GC to mark “most rigorous” for the coursework taken. She probably won’t get that because although she’s taking lots of APs (6-8 I think), she isn’t pursuing AP in the hard sciences, and is taking some art classes. That’s something that may hurt her later in admissions or scholarships, but at the same time I think it’s important for her to ENJOY her high school experience, and not just get through it.</p>
<p>3girls that’s why I come here- to avoid the chatter in the community which will only stress out my daughter. That is what I dread most once the school year begins. My daughter’s friend is starting the testing process in September, and each day she posts an update on her progress ( ie I aced the ACT practice test and now I don’t need the boot camp!). This stresses out my daughter big time. I keep telling her that she will not be taking the Septmber ACT and she really really needs to tune this stuff out.
Mihcal- I agree!!
I told my daughter to try her best and enjoy herself. Participate in activities that you love and write a killer essay showing who you are as a person. Get involved in your school and community and get a great LOR - the college process will fall into place. Happiness and fit are important.</p>
<p>IJD, the problem with this is that some kids don’t yet know what they love or are slower to develop or are engaged in a way that isn’t as obvious as the typical extrovert. A brilliant, quiet student who was slower to find himself (my nephew) can and did fall through the cracks. He’s graduated from college now and is taking a highly competitive, highly desirable dream job that placed him above candidates from reachy reach schools–so his brilliance did count in the end–but getting to this point was not without some bumps in the road. And as Suzy points out, a kid who pursues what she really loves takes a risk if her school penalizes her for it. It’s hard to know how to balance it all. </p>
<p>But…it is what it is. There’s no right and wrong to it.</p>
<p>“the problem with this is that some kids don’t yet know what they love or are slower to develop or are engaged in a way that isn’t as obvious as the typical extrovert.” This is the other issue with my D. She wanted to try different clubs and things in school and I encouraged that, and she’s got some nice leadership things, but she still doesn’t know what she LOVES. All in all, I know that she will be fine. I just don’t love this emphasis on what a kid’s passion is - many just don’t know yet!</p>
<p>How do you think sports are viewed if the student is not going to be a recruited athlete? My D plays 2 sports year round including school season, travel season and training season. She is a good athlete but not good enough to play at the big time D1 schools she dreams about. Club sports in college would be the perfect fit for her. That being said, these sports take up every waking moment of her high school life. She literally has no time for anything else. She loves it, they are her passion…but they are not her future. I wonder how that will be viewed in the admission process.</p>