Parents of the HS Class of 2019 (Part 1)

@ninakatarina

That is exactly why I spend so much time on this site! Venting here prevents me from making my daughter crazy.

@3SailAway, depending on how you’re counting (e.g., headcount vs. FTEs), the adjunctification of the faculty has now passed 50%. :frowning:

I haven’t been able to find lots of granular data on faculty makeup (with one exception: see below), but at least as of a year and a half ago Peterson’s had information on the percent of faculty that are full-time (and that are female, if that’s important for you or your child), and College Factual had percentages of tenure-track faculty (though I don’t know where they got those numbers).

Quick primer, for those who might need it here: Tenure-track faculty are assistant professors, associate professors, and professors; of those, the latter two ranks are tenured, but all have job protections that other ranks don’t, and their compensation includes full benefits. (They’re also nearly always full-time; though there are exceptions, they’re rare enough to be ignored for these sorts of investigations.) Instructors and visiting professors are usually but not always full-time with benefits, are generally on term-limited contracts generally of one to three years duration, and (with a few exceptions) have very little in the way of job protections. Adjunct faculty are nearly always part-time, teach on what’s basically a piece-work (per course) basis, and have effectively no job protections and no benefits.

Basically, faculty morale is likely to be higher, and useful and lasting professional relationships between faculty and students are more likely to exist given secondarily a higher proportion of tenure-track faculty, and secondarily a higher proportion of full-time faculty. Full-time is more expensive than part-time, though, and tenure-track is both more expensive and less flexible than non-tenure-track, so as business models of management infiltrate into academia, cheaper and more flexible is being preferred more and more by many administrators.

The one exceptions to the lack of granular data I know of: The American Society for Engineering Education has breakdowns on faculty in all sorts of interesting ways (usually both by institution and by discipline), but of course that’s only for engineering faculty—and engineering is a discipline in which adjunct faculty are often still what I think of as the “honorable” use of adjuncts, where it’s someone practicing in the field who can give students the benefit of experience and connections, not someone who’s stringing together part-time teaching work to keep food in the fridge.

@dfbdfb There is certainly a difference between types of adjuncts. My D1 is in the communications school of a less than prestigious university. Several of her professors have been adjuncts who are working in her field, have pointed her towards internship opportunities and have given her truly valuable mentoring and will be immensely helpful in her eventually finding a job in the field.

@gallentjill I LOVE the notion of learning to be employable – well put.

@3SailAway @dfbdfb 40%-50% part time faculty is regrettable in my opinion as someone who did the adjunct gig for 10 years. It’s not that those part-timers are doing a poor job. Many are earnest, hard-working, often early-career or dual-career folks, and like @gallentjill said, may have valuable professional perspective and connections. But when I was an adjunct at a UC, I was paid by the class, based on a full-time salary which by now is probably in the low $50Ks. Plus, no one is given a full-time load. Instead I’d get at most two classes a quarter, and often just one. I’d be making 1/3 or 1/2 of that ~$48K. Adjuncts who are supporting themselves just with teaching therefore have to teach at multiple campuses. They’re driving around an entire metro area. They’re coming onto campus just to teach the class, because they can’t afford to spend all day there – in my case, I’d try to minimize my child care costs. That means these well-meaning folks have a too-high likelihood of being chronically in a rush, generally overburdened and distracted. I did enjoy the years I spent doing it, and it kept my mind sharp when my kids were little, but they kept offering me mostly summer classes which I didn’t want, and at one point I was told I’d get an extra $10 for each student over a certain number and I thought, hmm. Ten. Dollars. Something went boink in my brain and I turned down my first class and haven’t looked back.

@ninakatarina Consider being an advocate for under-resourced kids. I’ve mentored two former foster kids this year and last and it’s been really rewarding – although not easy. The elder one loved his first year of college and is starting a history conservation internship next week. And the other told me yesterday that her COA to attend her chosen school is now down to only $3000 a year after being awarded various first-gen, foster child, etc scholarships. I got tears in my eyes reading her recent text. There are so many kids out there who do not have the benefit of what all our kids have, very involved parents out there researching, etc, so they take the path of least resistance, and we’re losing a lot of potential as a result. I’m going to ugly-cry at both these kids’ college graduations.

@RightCoaster My brother was like your older son. He was motivated to make money from early childhood. And honestly, if that’s your thing, then rock on – you’ll have an easier life in some ways. My brother graduated from a top LAC and immediately started a business buying and selling used tech products. He’s managed to support himself for 25 years as an entrepreneur. Interestingly, he thinks that he didn’t need that liberal arts education and it was a waste.

I have a much different view. I think college is an important period of life in its own right. I recently sat down with a fellow mom who scoffed and said, “Why would anyone send away an 18-year-old?” She said a kid of that age is far too young to be out in the world (which is a very 21st-century framing of time and maturity, but that’s beside the point). While I agree that I would not want a kid to move alone to, say, Manhattan, the residential college experience is really not the “real world.” It’s a scaffolded, supported, limited environment that I think is a great transition from being a child to being a young adult. As I tell my D, it’s also (cue the stage lights! cue the touching music!) a time in your life when you can be selfishly focused on your own growth, learning, personhood, and mind. There is plenty of time later in life to work for and because of others. So yes, my D says she she may want to major in religious studies, and my husband gets raised eyebrows and sweaty palms. Whereas I’m thinking, yes, that’s cool. That’s you. Go and develop more perspective on cultures and ways of being.

Now for all my waxing on about the inherent benefit of learning and taking time for oneself, I realize there’s a whole career at the end of all this. No one wants their kid to go to college and then live at home while playing the guitar and spending a half hour a week sending out resumes. I acknowledge that one thing I really did not do well was learn how to explore career avenues “outside the box” and, of great importance, how to market myself. So I am in complete agreement with what @homerdog said that students must get into that career development center from the start, and they must do internships. I barely went into our CDO the entire time I was in college, which was a huge mistake. I needed to be in there early to cultivate my understanding of the types of things I could do. So yes, while my kids are learning and growing and discovering themselves, they do need to develop practical savvy and gradually cultivate a plan for their early careers.

Some information, such as Percent Full-time Faculty and "Full-Time Undergraduates/Full-Time faculty Ratio is collected by IPEDs.

I like to use this website to compare colleges.

http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/search_basic.aspx

Keep in mind that these metrics follow the IPEDs definition, which is not the same as what you may find in the Common Data Set (and hence, what is used by US News in it's rankings/publications).

Percent Full-Time Faculty: The number of full-time faculty members as a percent of all faculty members. Beginning in 2013, odd year’s data were substituted for institutions that did not provide updated data during the even year. Because collection of the faculty variable is only mandatory in the fall of every odd year, odd year’s data were substituted for every even year’s data in prior CRO updates. (IPEDS)

Full-Time Undergraduates / Full-Time Faculty Ratio: The number of full-time undergraduates divided by the number of full-time faculty. (IPEDS)

By the way, I find that the funding info (expenditures/FTE) is even more interesting, as it gives you a “sense” of the amount of resources (as $) is being allocated to each student.

The data would be under the “Funding and Faculty” tab.

Section I of the common data set also has a breakdown of faculty into several categories, including full time and part time (but nothing on tenure vs non-tenure).

I agree with a lot of what’s been said here about the interaction of “job training” and higher education, and what’s valuable and what’s not. The point that @dfbdfb raised about us not knowing what jobs are going to be important in the future (and at this point, I include “10 years from now” in “the future”) is one of the key points raised in that Anders book @homerdog mentioned. It goes back to the old LAC selling point that what you’re really teaching people to do is learning how to think. I went to a state university and got a political science degree, which, yeah, I still use some content knowledge from, but really I learned more about reading and writing about loads of material.

Now some of the other benefits of college – learning to get along with others – I think is something that can be done anywhere, at whatever “level” of college, or in the real world, but obviously some schools can provide a better environment for that learning. D19 wants to go into a STEM field, but luckily (from my perspective) it’s a more theoretical one, so that she’s unlikely to choose a school that’s going to be limiting to her should she realize on a cold February morning that she doesn’t care enough about the subject to continue. Should that be the case, I have enough faith in the schools she’s looking at and her own self-motivation that she’ll be able to find something that engages and gives her enough skills post-college to help her reach some level of self-sufficiency.

As others have noted here on CC, one could argue that economic anxiety (and, in the case of public universities, some retrenchment of state support) is what’s driving this focus on “employable skills.” If you are a parent whose tuition was a couple grand a year when you were in your state’s flagship school (and maybe only $7-10k total for everything), finding out that tuition is now $12-$15k, and total unsubsidized COA is $30k might be a shock. All of a sudden, if you’re paying six figures for an education, I can understand why people are getting agitated. (Note: my actual political beliefs related to this whole situation are complicated and nuanced, and I’m not planning on discussing them here, just trying to outline why I think “employable skills” gets more visibility than it used to.)

And, finally, all internships are useful, even – and especially – the bad ones. Best internship I ever had was in graduate school. I spent a summer in DC, and realized that for many reasons, I had no interest in working in DC. The internship itself was fine, but learning what I didn’t like was supremely valuable. I hope my own D19 takes advantage of her relative privilege in attending college full-time to do even more of that than I did.

I agree wholeheartedly about the bad internships. Figuring out what you don’t want to do (or where you don’t want to live) after graduation is extremely valuable. I was a co-op student at University of Waterloo and I figure the most important thing I got out of my co-ops (well, besides a full-time job with my last co-op employer) was learning what I wanted to avoid. Likewise my DS11/15 figured out through internships what kinds of jobs/companies he wanted to avoid for full-time positions.

Okay, I’m annoyed at the educational-tutoring complex.

My D19’s school has regular semesters, and then before fall, between fall and spring, and at the end of spring they have mini-courses (called “intensives”), usually a quarter or half credit, depending.

At the end of junior year, most students take one called “college boot camp”. The useful part has been working on essays and such. There’s also ACT and SAT practice sessions, which are unimportant to my D19 (since she’s already taken them and gotten scores she’s happy with), but she took them anyway.

And then I get this in my email, titled “Analysis of [D19]'s SAT & ACT Scores”:

It then goes on to pitch tutoring services, which I have no problem with—gotta make a living somehow, right?—but why in the world imply that my D19’s list of possible colleges isn’t actually “good enough”?

You know why she didn’t list the U of Washington? Because she’s smart enough to know that it isn’t just getting into a college, it’s paying for it—and Iowa State is affordable for us without aid beyond their guaranteed amounts for her scores, and Western Washington is with a WUE scholarship, but the U of Washington both has a high list price and doesn’t participate in WUE, and therefore we’d never be able to afford it.

And that annoys me—selling people on getting into a college (if only you take the right magic tutoring), but not worrying about being able to go to a college.

@dfbdfb that’s why my kids don’t apply to colleges that we can’t afford just to see if they can get in. It sets people up for family discord.

Okay, we’ve rallied over here. Well, I’ve rallied. Seriously. This kid now wants a school that’s within a two-hour radius from home with a marching/pep band, AROTC, and English/writing major. Oh, and he is not into prestige or “preppiness.” A bunch of schools have already been ruled out due to the “preppiness” factor.

The bottom line is that S19 is going to have to expand the radius to three hours from home in order to have more AROTC (and marching/pep band and English/writing) options . Wish me luck on this. Proposing it will make him nervous but I need to stay the course. But there are other schools that check all the boxes. There is one school in particular that I would love for him to consider. It checks all of the boxes. I wanted him to consider it before the AROTC thing. But it was just outside the original radius and he said no. Perhaps now, he might be open to it.

And here’s my College Planning Obsessed Parent Therapy Moment (CPOPTM). I am really attached to the non-ROTC list! We did lots of visits and narrowed it down. I was imagining him at one of the two favorite LACs. The AROTC thing means those two schools (and a few others) might no longer be in play. While we started visits back in the fall, having this additional criterion means, well, a different list of schools. And more visits. It’s like starting all over again. I have to go through that emotional process ALL OVER AGAIN. Ahhhhhhhhh!

Figured you all might understand the CPOPTM. Mr. InfiniteWaves does not. :slight_smile:

@dfbdfb I agree. We are consumers of an industry. I was turned off when D looked at her March SAT scores, in the 97th and 88th percentiles, and the interface the College Board chose to use is, “You can improve your scores!” So she sees that, internalizes it, and sure enough, she’s taking it a second time when we have no reason to believe she’s going to show big gains and we’re basically nibbling around the edges. I also dislike how you can send your scores to four schools included in the registration fee, but you have to designate them before you’ve seen your scores. Pffft. And yep, “higher tier” is inappropriate in that context. I had this epiphany recently when the USNWR “rankings” for HIGH SCHOOLS came out recently and our district was bragging about some of our schools being in the top 5% or something. Some were, some weren’t. It’s so apparent to me that in many ways, “good” schools benefit from the high socioeconomic status of the serving population, and there’s really not an effective difference between the schools bragging about being on this list and the ones that weren’t. So I realized, hmmm
these almighty rankings really are their own industry. I knew they need to be taken with a grain of salt and basically considered only for global context and not in a granular fashion, but seeing the results at the high school level really made me feel like the whole scene is so sketchy.

@InfiniteWaves Aaaah hard to let the kids really be in the driver’s seat sometimes. Glad your S19 is gaining a better sense of what he wants, even if the shifting can be emotionally difficult for Mom ;). My main struggle with D19 is that she can be very passive in this whole process. Doesn’t research schools on her own, doesn’t read mailers, emails, etc. So I have to do a nuanced read of her reactions. When I recently drew up an itinerary for our college tours in the midwest this summer, her face was so flat. So it was one of those moments of, “Ok, what’s
wrong?” She wouldn’t come right out and say she wanted to visit her dreamy reach school, but I read between the lines, changed the itinerary, and now she’s perkier about it all. This means I’m afraid of how the big decision is all going to play out
she will behave like that, DH will look at the bottom line and get out spreadsheets and do a lot of frowning, I’ll have a much more follow-your-heart credo, and just for added fun, my mother in law will no doubt pipe in with her predictable 1990s-era beliefs about schools. I’m already buckling up, and holding out hope that the decision somehow both makes itself and is a super peaceful one that everybody is happy with
ha.

@InfiniteWaves I get you. Between DD’s changes of heart on distance, colleges, and majors, it’s hard to shift gears. I start really getting into something and researching it and then it’s on to a new idea.

@dfbdfb That’s crummy to discount your daughter’s choices. At least you know better than to fall for it. Affordability is one of our top concerns. I cringed yesterday when I heard a radio ad for Discover Student Loans that went something like this (very paraphrased!):

Son: What are you doing Dad?
Dad: Cramming to figure out how to pay for college.
Son: Dad, Discover Student Loans are really easy to get, you don’t have to worry.
Dad: Oh, okay great!

Problem solved 8-|

It’s the first day of summer vacation for S19 and I’m trying to hold myself back from talking about colleges and visits. He ended up with fantastic grades in all of his classes (6 IB classes plus AP physics) so I’m very proud of him. I guess I’ll give him a break. He’s already left the room when I was trying to talk him into some possible camps/tournaments for his fall sport. It’s always hard to tell if he really doesn’t want to do something or if he just doesn’t want me to spend any money and it’s usually the latter.
I enjoyed hearing all of your thoughts about college majors and career planning. Good things to think about!

@bjscheel, that loan advertisement is one of those times I wish CC had a Facebook-style [face with wide shocked eyes] reaction.

@SDCounty3Mom I’ve considered myself the administrative assistant to S’s college search. We talk about criteria. Then I “pull” schools he might be interested in. We talk about them. He looks at the websites. Then I register for visits.

Because he (originally) wanted to stay within two hours of home and we are in central PA, there are a lot of schools. And why not visit if they are less than two hours away. I’ve scheduled, cancelled, and rescheduled a lot of visits! LOL!

On a good note, S19 and I had a good talk this afternoon. He is willing to expand the radius so that he can consider more schools that check the original boxes plus AROTC. He doesn’t even remember me recommending the two just-beyond-radius schools I really wanted him to consider pre-ARTOC. Both have AROTC as it turns out. And now he is all for 'em! So New York schools, here we come!

Now I am wondering if we started visits too early as we are now jamming a bunch in over the summer before senior year anyway. 8-|

@InfiniteWaves Oh man central Pennsylvania is a great location for density of schools! I’m jealous
out west we just don’t have that. And I like the term “curator” for our Mom roles in this college search process. :wink: I agree that it is possible to start tours too early. I took D19 to a couple of early tours before she finished her sophomore year and they were basically just to put the conceptual understanding in her head and not really valuable for college selection. And back in the day when I was a teen I went on I think literally all of the tours my brother, three years ahead, went on, and it was all a clueless blur for me


@SDCounty3Mom I’m totally going with “curator.” :))

Today was the last day for seniors at our school. DS19 is officially a rising senior. :((

Didn’t have a chance to read through all 559 pages (yikes!) but as a parent of a graduating h.s. senior and current junior, living in CT I’ve seen plenty of schools spoken about here. My junior wants to run track and while she could run D2 or low level D1 with her numbers, “I don’t want to be owned dad!”, so D3 it is. She has visited Brandeis, Wheaton, Dickinson (2x), Gettysburg, Franklin and Marshall, Smith, Mt. Holyoke
and other small LAC. At coaches invite, this past spring she has done overnights at Wheaton and Dickinson. She thought it would be Wheaton until the overnight where she was offered booze and isnt’ her thing (she’s a young 16yo) so that’s now out. She loved Dickinson and the team atmosphere; said she attended 3 classes and actually volunteered some answers. She likes the roads in the center of town going thru the campus as it makes the school feel like part of the town. The coaches really like her and offered to do an “early read” (as did Wheaton and Gettysburg). We both checked out Gettysburg while out that way and found it a bit more stuffy feeling than Dickinson’s more laid back almost Smith College bohemian type feel. Anyone ever hear of this early read business and gone thru the process? Plan to pursue this summer. Thanks!

@chipperd The athletic recruit subforum is a wealth of information. I went through the D3 preread process with my S17. S17 submitted his transcript, test scores, and school profile July 1st between junior and senior year. My S17 was informed by the coach about a week later (I think) that admissions had given the “green light.” He then submitted his official application a couple of days after the Common Application opened up. Since he only submitted that one application, I breathed a huge sigh of relief when he received his official acceptance when ED results were released in December.

Good luck on the recruiting journey!