I agree with @RightCoaster but the deal is this - you don’t know if you get get a high score on those SAT 2s unless you study and give it a shot. So, the student either decides to spend time prepping and taking them or does not. It could end up a waste of time if the student preps and doesn’t get scores that can be sent but you just don’t know until the time is put in. So far, S19 has taken Bio (freshman year) and History (last month) and only History is even close to a score he would send. I showed him his list of schools and how they look at SAT 2s and he’s decided to study this summer and take three in Aug. We could just eliminate some schools that recommend them but, since he’s willing to study and take them in Aug, those schools stay on the list for now.
For SAT Subject tests, it seems that “recommended” means that they expect to see the requisite number of SAT Subject tests scores unless the student could not afford to take those tests (but fee waivers should address that) or comes from a high school where the majority of students don’t take these subject tests because the awareness of them is just not there.
So, if the student doesn’t fit any of the two categories mentioned above, the million dollar question is whether its better to submit SAT Subject test scores that are less than stellar for the school in question that recommends them, or to not submit these less then stellar scores at all. I think only an AO for that specific school can provide the answer.
My son is only looking at a few schools ( that he probably won’t get into anyways), that require a minimum of 2 SAT subject tests. He took them already, and he got a medium score- not good or bad really. If they really want to accept him, they will, but I don’t the 2 medium sat subject matter tests will rule him out. They’d look at the whole package and say all scores not high enough, GPA too low, not enough rigor etc. He’s a classic bubble kid in regards to his overall package, decently good but not great. He’ll only get in to his reaches by way of athletic recruitment if at all, and we are fine with him not getting in to those types of schools anyways. Plenty of good options out there to consider.
@Kona2012 what I meant, is if you think your kid could benefit from submitting an optional test score, then go ahead and do it. But only submit them if they are very good scores. If you have a kid with great test scores on the SAT/ACT and it’s optional for subject tests, I probably wouldn’t have my kid waste the time taking them.
Regarding the issue of declaring an academic interest, even for a LAC application, I’ve gotten some related information in recent weeks. I watched a Facebook Live in which a college consultant was asked whether a strategy could be to (bogusly, basically) indicate an interest in a less-common major, in the hope that this would qualify as your bringing “diversity” and make you a more attractive applicant. While this consultant acknowledged that schools do want a well-rounded class, she also said (and I’ve heard this in person from our local consultant) that your application should “tell a story”, and your academic interests should be apparent from the overall application. Our consultant said a new pair of eyes should be able to walk in cold on an application and be able to guess what the student’s intended major is, based on their overall package of letters, ECs, courses, etc. So if your kid is taking a lot of science classes, gets a letter from the AP Bio teacher, has a science-related EC, and then claims to want to major in urban studies or classics, that would be a head-scratcher and probably wouldn’t help the application. It’s the kids who really have that authentic interest in learning to translate ancient texts or in excavating a historic site who enhance their application via their “obscure” academic interests.
@JenJenJenJen @homerdog As for the specific question of declaring an interest or leaving it with a legit “undecided,” I’d say a student should choose something for a LAC application. They don’t have to declare a major for a couple of years and no one is going to hold a student to that application choice. For one thing, AOs are looking for good fits. If you’re applying to Vassar and say you’re excited about your career in electrical engineering, the fit is going to be off. Schools care about fit in part because they care about their graduation rates. They want to be sure they have what you want. Also, in holistic admissions, the idea is that you want AOs to be able to picture you on their campus. It’s hard to picture the Undecided kid from an academic perspective. I mentored a former foster youth last year who had to discuss career plans for a scholarship application and his first draft was a lot of “Although I don’t know what I want to study, I’m excited about going to college and learning…” I strongly encouraged him to at least come up with some possible career paths he could see himself on, so that the readers could envision him in the workplace in a few years, contributing to the community. Although LACs understand and appreciate the reality of the Undecideds, and many, many kids won’t major in what they claim they will as high school kids, I’d still put something down to give them that picture.
Regarding the emails our kids are getting from schools, I continue to wonder what information they have. D19 has been getting a lot of “congratulations on your hard work” emails, and ones “inviting” her to apply, and the wording is very similar among them (e.g., repeated “I want your application to be one of the first I read this year.”) Hmm. So…I don’t feel like I’ve ever really understood what information they have about her. How DO they know she’s indeed a top 10% student or has a high-percentile SAT score? D19 got a recent email from Wooster too but I wouldn’t say that should be discouraging for @Kona2012’s son. Take them at their word that they want him to apply. Wooster is a nice school and a great choice if research is an interest. I encouraged my mentee this year to apply there this year along with a few other CTCL schools. She was waitlisted there and I was holding out hope that she would get The Call, but since it’s June, I guess it’s a no. It would’ve been cool for her, but she’s heading to the state flagship with great financial support so it’s a happy ending anyway.
When you are on college tours, do any of you ever forget for a moment that you are there for your child, forget how old you are and start imagining what life would be like on campus? I have definitely had those moments.
@SDCounty3Mom Thanks for the info
@Kona2012 Our recent college of Wooster email was way more generic.
@gallentjill I went to a school in a nice sunny warm part of the USA so when I go tour colleges around New England I just imagine the kids being cold from October to April. I got to wear shorts, play golf and swim year round. I have yet to encounter a campus that I could envision myself being happier at. I’d probably find some campuses out in CA that I would enjoy.
@homerdog, I know this is a couple topics back in the thread, but I also find it disconcerting how D can be influenced by her peers in this process. I think the issue is that she doesn’t have enough first hand experience of college in general or familiarity with specific places, so she’s influenced by the kids around her.
For example, we had plans to visit an LAC when she found out that two seniors she really looks up to did not get in. It was a blow to her confidence, and her excitement for the school evaporated. It helped to talk it through with her over a couple of days. The seniors are wonderful and very talented kids, but we don’t know them as students, and academics is the top consideration for this college. Also, one of them will be going to a big, urban university in the fall, so maybe something about the application made the small relatively rural LAC feel they wouldn’t be the best fit. I had my daughter read the LAC’s statement on what kind of student they are looking for, and she really saw herself and felt better. We visited, and it went to the top of her list.
A second school took a hit when a good friend dropped it after SAT scores came back. Friend’s score was in the top 25% and she now wants to “aim higher” in the rankings. D19’s scores also fall there, but when she thought about it, she decided that she wants to feel solidly capable wherever she ends up. In her experience so far in different subjects/classes, being close to the top motivates her to work much harder than when she feels closer to the bottom.
Another aspect to this is that she could thrive and be happy at a lot of different schools. Of course, we want to maximize the factors that will make it a good match, but most of her success is going to depend on her attitude and what she puts into her college experience. If she’s going to be positive, engaged, flexible, and patient, then a lot of different schools could become the perfect place for her. I have faith that she will be mature enough to embody those qualities regardless of where her friends go, whether she gets into her first choice, who her roommate is etc. But she is a teenager, and there will be bumps in the road, so that’s where the worry creeps in!
@Kona2012, D19 did take schools off her list for recommending SAT subject tests. She is was put off by the expectation that despite three years of A’s at a competitive HS, plus the regular SAT, and AP’s, she should spend the precious free time she has left studying for more tests. I don’t know if this is true, but she regards it as a sign that she would have a harder time with work/life balance at those schools.
I have that feeling all the time, @gallentjill , I have chosen a couple of schools to look at just because I wish I had gone there, rather than thinking of DS at those schools. I haven’t dragged him to any women’s colleges yet but it’s been a near thing.
@SDCounty3Mom lots of good info. Thx!! As for entering a major (or academic interest) that a school does not have, that’s actually impossible since each school on the common app has its own drop down menu of options. I think S19 will stay away from the “undecided” option and enter a few academic areas that are interesting to him and make sense with his application.
Regarding subject tests…What do you all think is the cut-off for a score good enough to report? My D took one this past Saturday. She told me today that she thinks she might have bubbled in her birthday wrong. What the heck? If she did misbubble the day she was born, I hope that doesn’t cause a problem with her test.
@homerdog I would agree that selecting several possible majors or interests that match up with your son’s high school resume is important. At an engineering info session we attended recently there was the example of the student who had great grades, interesting ECs but showed no visible level of interest in the engineering, math, sciences etc, so when they looked at that kids overall application the admissions committe passed on this student and instead selected another student with lower scores and gpa but much deeper level of interest in engineering.
You are just going to have to find some areas of interest that your son can select and make sure it matches up to what he has been studying in school and working on in his free time.
There’s no disguising what my son wants to study in college. Just looking at his list of ECs - theatre, theatre, theatre, theatre, writing about theatre, theatre…
@ninakatarina that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. He just needs to apply to the places that want a theatre kid with his capabilities from your area. He’ll do fine. He has an interesting story.
@shuttlebus, I have been asking the same questions about subject tests. consensus around here is that for tippy top elite schools and programs its 750+, I have heard others say that anything that starts with 7 is ok. You might want to talk to the admissions office from the schools you are interested in and see what they say.
@3SailAway I think both my son and I feel the same way. Why isn’t SAT score, ACT score, AP scores and Predicted IB exam scores enough. Furthermore, why isn’t straight A’s in a full IB diploma program enough. I just think its too much and we need to say “Done”! Affording the tests isn’t my problem but the time suck is. My son needs to spend the summer writing his extended essay which is due the first day back to school and he needs to write his college essays and be prepared to apply to schools for the various deadlines. I’m beginning to think that jumping through all these hoops for some schools just isn’t worth it. And honestly maybe that is truly the way to whittle down the list. There are plenty of great schools left on his list, schools that he would be happy at so I think its time for a discussion and some hard decisions.
S19 has zero academic ECs but there are a few academic interests that could be gleaned from his app nonetheless. He’s won two writing awards and he is interested in writing so he could say English. I think his essays will be good so that will back that up too. He could also say history since he’s been part of the Citizens Club at school and his best rec will come from his APUSH teacher. He could write math as an interest since he is fairly advanced in math, taking honors Multivariable next year and having gotten all As in honors math in high school. And of course there’s art. All of those honestly are options he’s considering for a major. I think it’s a little different for an engineeeing student and agree that ECs are important. So many kids say they want to be engineers and they don’t even know what they do.
I see S19 double majoring in something quantitative (math or stats or Econ) and in something else like Poli Sci/History/English. He shows interest in some of the sciences too but, honestly, unless he gets swept up in one of those classes by a particularly persuasive professor, I don’t see that’s interest sticking.
We are still going around and around on what are “good” SAT 2 subject test scores. I called Dartmouth to confirm that they dropped the SAT essay (which they did and completely NOT considering it any longer) and asked the student who answered the phone what she thought were strong SAT 2 scores. I thought her answer was interesting. First, she said that her SAT 2 scores were lower than her SAT score and probably the least strong aspect of her application. She said that she sent her scores after trying twice at the two she thought she could do best on. She stopped trying after two attempts because she thought she had prepared the best she could and didn’t think she could get any higher. She also said that her AO told her after her acceptance that her essays were a big reason that she was admitted. So…holistic admissions does exist!
Regarding SAT 2 tests, S19 will likely take 2 or 3 tests in August. However, if your kid is really over taking any more tests and he/she wants to focus on other things, don’t assume that you have to take schools off their list. I understand that you want to make sure they have covered all the bases, but even the colleges that recommend them are looking at many other factors about your kids that will likely carry more weight.
@Kona2012 - I think you said Lafayette recommended the scores. I don’t know if they changed the policy recently but my D didn’t take subject tests and they accepted her last year with a big merit scholarship. She was also accepted to several other selective LACs including two schools in the top 12. So, if kids have a strong application otherwise, it may not be crucial to take the subject tests. Now, Ivy league schools are probably a different story.
DS19 is not taking the SAT2. He took the ACT once, will take it again to see if he can get slightly higher scores. If that’s not enough for some schools, well, so be it. He’s at a very burned out stage right now. It’s so stupid that they force the rest of the school to go on once the seniors have graduated. They’re all walking zombies at this point, they’ve passed the point of caring.