Our GC’s don’t use the term “safety”, opting instead for “foundation school”. I think that has the benefit of legitimizing the school as a perceived match and not a “worse case scenario” option that is often (and often times incorrectly) associated with “safeties”.
@gallentjill, his schools fit your criteria for true safeties, but he only has two on his list so far which gives me additional pause!
I think a big part of the debate here is that people have very different definitions of what a “safety” school is. @gallentjill describes it as >60% acceptance rate, and the student’s stats are well above the median. I totally get that, especially if you don’t have a lot of data to go on. Personally, I find the acceptance rate to be a not very useful way to determine safety status. Acceptance rate obviously depends very highly on the pool of kids applying, and in this era where a lot of schools are gaming their stats (at least to some extent) by moves like trying to increase their applicant pool or doing a lot of waitlist decisions, acceptance rate can be a difficult thing to read.
If you have it (and I know not everyone does), Naviance data can help give a much more accurate picture of what you can reasonably call a “safety.’” So for example, S17 applied to Georgetown, which has something like a 15% acceptance rate. Conventional wisdom would say that no one should really call a school with a sub-20% acceptance rate a “safety.” But Georgetown – unlike many/most schools its size – is heavily driven by metrics in its admissions process. In the last 5 years, no student from our school with stats like S17’s had ever been rejected, so even though his CC insisted that you could only call it a “match” at best, I nonetheless considered it essentially a safety for him. But even if you don’t have access to such detailed data, I would personally still view a “safety” as “a school that you really should get into, all things being equal,” but not necessarily dipping as low as “a school that you are absolutely guaranteed to get into.” That’s why we have more than one safety on our list, as none of them are guarantees.
Are kids falling for calling safeties by another name? They’re all the same thing. The reason that kids need them is because they want to go to college next year and all other schools aren’t sure acceptances. So to me, it doesn’t matter what you call them. They are schools that will accept you and you can choose to go there if you like.
I think some of this, again, depends on the scene at the high school. At our 3200 student public school, the counselors can’t control what the kids call their safeties. They can’t control the judging that goes on in the lunchroom. Or the friends who want to know each others’ lists because at some level they might be competing for spots at a certain college. We’ve told S19 to keep his cards close to his chest and he’s done that, especially lately when he’s added some schools that are more popular with the top kids at our school.
Our high school has a strict definition of safety, which is basically an auto-admit. They advise all our students to apply in October to our local Cal State, which is apparently required to accept students within our CSU boundary that have at least a C- in all the core requirements for the UC/CSU systems. We won’t be taking that advice because I don’t think it’s necessary for D19 and there are other schools more appealing that aren’t literally auto-admit but that we would feel pretty comfortable about. Our particular CSU isn’t one of the more popular ones so claiming one’s spot there isn’t particularly exciting. We technically have a guaranteed spot in the UC system for kids in the top 10% at their respective high schools, but the least desired campus is the one that gives you the guaranteed spot. I guess that’s also technically an auto-admit for my kiddo therefore.
Our family’s definition of “safety” is one where D19’s stats are comfortably above their 75th percentile, where we’ve visited and therefore shown interest, and where the acceptance rate is well above 50%. We technically only have one such school for D19. There’s a second school that I’m calling “safety-lite”, where she’s again comfortably above their 75th percentile, where we’ve visited but they technically don’t take demonstrated interest into account apparently, and where the acceptance rate is only slightly above 50%. That’s not really a safety, but I’d be getting wide-eyed and very grumbly if she doesn’t get a yes from them.
While our high school has a conservative definition of “Safety”, it has a ridiculous definition of “Reach,” which is a school for which your stats are “below their ranges”. Noooooot a good thing to advise kids to choose one or two such schools in my opinion. And their definition of “Match” is one where you’re in the ranges. This is without regard to the level of those ranges and the admissions rate. By their definition, literally no school on the planet is a “reach” for D19, and everything is basically a “Match.” Which of course is ludicrous and just plain wrong. That’s what they say in their presentations but I don’t think they’d really espouse that if pressed. We did meet earlier this month with D’s GC and gave her D’s list but of course the GC didn’t express any opinions on likelihoods, since I’m pretty sure she doesn’t really know.
We don’t have Naviance and I have suffered from periods of Naviance Envy on and off for the last few months as I’ve learned more about it. Of course, our school isn’t one of those that is a pipeline to any of the top-40 types of schools so the data we’d have wouldn’t be that comprehensive anyway. Sounds like a really reassuring (or terrifying) tool when you do have it.
I don’t actually tend to use the word “safety” with D19 a lot. I’ve tried using “likely admit”, in as much as it helps not feed into the belief that one’s safety represents resorting to the sad pitiful backup plan. But yep…nobody is really fooled. There are plenty of great kids who go to schools that aren’t that selective and that could therefore be called someone’s safety. In fact I’d be happy if I had a kiddo who had their heart set on a school they could apply to now and get into. We don’t have a lot of kids like that in California since our state schools do not have rolling admissions and the UCs are highly selective. It’s all tradeoffs, I guess…!
I think we have been lucky in two important ways regarding D2’s happiness with her safety schools. First, her older sister is at one and loves it. She really respects her sister and so there is no issue of feeling the school is “beneath” her. Second, her unique list of wants and requirements pretty much eliminated most of the matches. After accounting for everything she wants and needs, we are left with tippy top reaches and safeties. We really didn’t even visit many matches and only one had her excited at all.
I think this would have been a very different search if either of my girls were undecided about their major or career choice.
Very interesting discussion!
My S19’s process is so different with his auditioned major that his list is really based on (1) the instrumental instructor; (2) geographic location; (3) perceived chance of maybe getting in talent-wise; and (4) chances of academic merit. He’s pretty sure he’ll want to get an M.M. so even if he did somehow audition his way off a waitlist and into a top music school, it would be a reach to pay for it and there would be no money left. So, we have in-state publics that he would not be considering if he were applying to a “normal” major, OOS publics with S19-approved professors, one private school which I guess is the “reach” (along with one of the more selective public music schools). I’m not sure anything could be called a safety in terms of his major, although I would consider 6 of the 7 schools to be academic safeties and the last one to be a match in terms of his stats and the acceptance rates.
Requests that he find and add a non-audition B.A. or apply to a slightly “better” school undeclared are not being entertained so far. I asked him to consider William & Mary as an academic reach (they have a B.A. in music, a strong program where he could audition later on), but he’s probably right when he says he wouldn’t fit in there. He’s bright, but not even remotely intellectual. He doesn’t want to get into small class discussions with your smart, engaged kids, lol.
@gallentjill - I hadn’t heard that Drew was having financial issues. In fact, they just lowered tuition by 20% and their enrollment is actually up each of the past few years. As for being small, I find it fairly typical for a LAC (~1600). Another great attribute, aside from their science program, is their Wall Street and UN semesters. Very commutable to NYC.
@homerdog, our kids sound a lot alike, in fact, I know they have at least one school they are interested in common. And yes, the other kids and parents talk a lot. He may have an opinion I don’t know about, but I think he is good. Es, he knows which are lottery (that’s what I call them, too!), match, and yes, even safety. But to get his majors - made it harder with 2, and one is audition, too @eh1234, his list makes perfect sense to us. So, we hear all that stuff, too.
So I think I set up FAFSA ID’s for S19 and myself correctly. There is no mad rush to fill out form just because it opens 10/1?
@mountainmomof3 No, no mad rush.
I wanted to chime in on what @zipstermom and @RightCoaster said about finding a personal connection with the safety school. I know it’s anecdotal, but it definitely sways D19, and even influences me, when we find someone with first hand good experience.
If it’s someone from her HS, that’s great, but other connections help too. A family friend who once taught at the school, a young teacher who graduated from there. Since we’ve already decided that these places are good enough matches to keep them on the list, I say bring it on with any positive associations! It’s not going to make D19 fall in love, but does take the edge off the worry when we know that real people have been happy there.
I think there are a lot of factors at play here.
- The name "safety" is, by itself, a deal killer for some kids. There seems to be a perception that if a school is classified as such, regardless of what any data may say, it is perceived by the student as less worthy and almost seems to fall into a "guilty until proven otherwise" mentality. Personally, I think of a safety as a haven. Or at least it should be. Somewhere nice, and warm and nurturing, where a student could blossom. And no, it doesn’t matter what you call it, some HS's definitely have an overriding mindset that is deadest against it. I don't think "likely" is any more appealing, in fact it makes it sound less "safe" to me but that's just me.
- Level of students and academics. As mentioned by others…the student demographic you might find at an on-level HS class, versus an intro level college class is, in most cases, NOT the same student. I too have had my kids supremely frustrated in an on-level class were the teacher may be teaching to the lowest common denominator. They didn't take many and often only if it was all that was offered. College doesn't work that way, no matter what tier you are at. Kids are expected to keep up or suffer the consequences. It isn't dumbed down to make sure they graduate. One cannot (or should not) compare those two experiences.
In fact, some kids get themselves in quite a bit of trouble in college, assuming they should skip intro classes either based on AP test scores or for other reasons and while it does work well for some, it doesn’t for all and we hear those stories too. This becomes a huge issue if merit monies are on the line and the gpa requirement isn’t met .
It’s a double edged sword though. Maybe your student doesn’t want a haven, or something nice, warm and nurturing. Maybe they want cut throat competitiveness and intensity. That’s absolutely ok too as long as they can handle it. There is many a student who thought they could and then go from being the top, or upper end of the pack at their HS to feeling like the bottom of the barrel and they don’t take it well. Being pushed is one thing, feeling stepped on or invisible can be another, especially if it’s not something you are used to. Of course, there are a million options in the middle.
- Love to attend. I still emphatically feel that any student should be able to find a safety they would love to attend. Failure to do so is a choice. There are hundreds, thousands of colleges out there. How "love" is defined is subjective. But at a bare minimum it is happy to attend. And I do mean genuinely happy. It is possible even if it's not a first choice. It isn't feeling like a failure, or that you were robbed or denied or screwed over and well….we see a LOT of that kind of attitude. We will see the "I am such a failure I should take a gap year, go to a CC, I'll never amount to anything" victim mentality drama in the spring and it is SO avoidable.
That said, I think constraints actually do help. If a student is allowed to apply anywhere they like, for any reason, with zero financial or other constraints it can become pretty easy to get really picky because there aren’t really any rules. I actually think being undecided is an advantage in this case, I don’t see a difference in evaluating the merits of x program at a bunch of schools, versus the gen ed, “how will they help me decide what I want to do” options at a bunch of schools.
Peer pressure, and family play a huge role here. If we as parents aren’t thrilled with any of the safeties and don’t really want our kids going there, then they are unlikely to as well. They don’t want to disappoint us either and will pick up on vibes. For me I need to love the safety too, and that love can be a powerful influence. I set ground rules very early and finding at least one safety that they loved, was always a rule. If it wasn’t in state (in case they changed their mind about wanting to be far away) then they had to have 2, one in state and one OOS. There have certainly been options that I’ve been less than thrilled with and steered my kids to other safe havens that we all could feel good about, but there really has never been a shortage of options.
For me, if my student was not happy or liking any of their safeties…I’d start shopping all over again. I buy insurance. For trips, for dorms, for tuition, for life. It makes me feel safe and secure and covered. I like back up plans and I want good ones. As a parent, I want that for my child…and for me as they go through this process. I may hope to never use it but I still make sure I have it and if I have to use it, I’ll be so happy and relieved knowing it is there. I agree, that personal connection can help but a personal connection can be an AdCom, a faculty member at a class that the student sat in on, or someone from HS, friend or family. More visits to the same place to force a “like” is probably not the answer but it is an option.
@eandesmom great post. Totally agree that Spring
can be quite dramatic for many families. It’s quite unfortunate. That is the time of Senior year when our students should be looking forward to the future and enjoying their last few months of HS. Lots of anger by students and parents. I think it’s important to prepare now and choose potential schools wisely at this point of the process. Spring can also be a time of great surprises as well. I’d love to see more of those.
There aren’t really enough categories to fit all the 9 schools my kid is applying to.
He applied to and was already accepted by the super-safety. If all else fails, we know he can go there. It’s not a brilliant choice, but he could make some happiness there. If he got 8 rejections he would probably be devastated, though. I get the feeling he might end up hating the safety in that case, and it wouldn’t have a happy outcome.
There are two regular definition safeties on his list, where I think there’s less than 1% chance they’d refuse him so long as he continues to show interest. Thing is, one of the safeties for admission has a super-exclusive program he wants (Fordham drama). He’s highly likely to get into Fordham, but they only take something like 12 kids each year. So that’s actually a lottery ticket school.
He has two schools in the match range. One of those would be a reach except we have legacy and religion on our side so I knock it down to the match category. But if they have enough Friends with better stats and better meeting attendance that moves it back into reach range.
There are two reaches. But one of the reaches could be a high match. He had an excellent interview and their mailings seem enthusiastic. On the other one his stats seem to match up, but Naviance shows that they’ve rejected kids from his school with higher stats and of the 4 they accepted from our school in the past 5 years, 0 attended. I hae to wonder if they might feel burned by this and refuse him.
Then there are two lottery tickets. But one of the lottery tickets is stratosphere (Yale) and the other is top 10 (Brown). It seems like these should be different categories.
Acceptance possibility is a spectrum, not an easy set of buckets.
@ninakatarina I hear you on the categories. I’ve stopped even thinking about each school and it’s category for the most part. S19has three pretty obvious reaches. Two safeties. And nine whatevers. They are the middles.
Although we disagree about the feasibility of asking every kid to love their safety, I couldn’t agree more about this. In fact, I see it here on CC. There is one poster, for example, who suggests that high stat kids who are faced with needing to attend their safety should take a gap year because they couldn’t possibly be fulfilled at the safety. This is true even when the safety is a fine school like Ithaca. It makes me crazy.
We are having the hardest time with safeties right now. D had two safeties - one she has already sent the application and then later told me she wouldn’t go there, the other she says she will send an application but she wouldn’t be happy going there. I told her don’t bother - why waste the money if she really won’t go there? Of course that means we are back to looking for safeties which is not easy now that she decided she wants a school with a “good name.” There is no point in not calling the schools like or safety because she hears things from her friends and she even asks me what the acceptance rate is when I mention a school. This whole college search started off so exciting and is now at the point of such frustration I am sick of it.
I don’t know what to consider the few schools she likes (as much as this kid can like something - she is very meh about everything lately.) I tell her they are reaches because I don’t want her to be disappointed come spring but it’s not like they are super reaches or anything. One is the state flagship - UF (she doesn’t love it but would go there over the safeties so far) which has gotten much more difficult but she should get in barring any weird situations which we have heard of both at home and here on CC. The others are both in the 20% acceptance rate and she sits right near the top of the 50% ACT range on both of them. The top 75% is 33 at both schools and she has a 32 composite, 33 super score which only one of the schools considers. I really thought she liked one best and mentioned going ED because she knows of a few friends that are ahead of her statistically who are also applying and all of a sudden she said she didn’t know if it was really her first choice. 8-|
D21 tells me she doesn’t care about school names or ranks she just wants somewhere she will love that isn’t too cold- I hope she thinks the same way when her time comes, it will be so much easier!! :))
As far as school night now D seems to be doing pretty well. She is so happy she took AP Stats instead of Calculus. Calc would have looked better on her applications I guess but another C in math would not be good - as of now she is understanding and not hating stats which is good enough for me!
She was so nervous about her dual enrollment photography class since it is at the local college, turns out she loves it! She gets a little stressed during the week because she has to take 72 photos a week and she is super picky about each picture, I try to tell her to just go crazy and take pictures everywhere but she won’t listen to me and it almost always comes down to the night before class where she is running around trying to finish her second roll. Once she is in class she just loves developing and printing pictures and she has some really cool prints so far. Next week they do a portfolio review where they present their 12 favorite pictures and get critiques from the professor and students. Shouldn’t take too long as there are only 2 other kids in the class! Started off with 5 total then 2 just stopped showing up.
She is doing an OK job of balancing her responsibilities although she was supposed to be working at DH’s office a day or two a week and she has not done that yet.
So, did anyone else’s S19 tell them last night that they now want a different major, which isn’t available at the majority of the schools he’s seen? So, the list would have been extremely different had we known… mine did. Apparently, he’s been thinking about it for months.
They still work together, but he is extremely focused on the “major” now. For details, he has been looking at neuroscience/biochemistry and music as a double major. Now, all he wants is music therapy.
Sigh.
Any suggestions on what to say to possibly consider a broader undergrad, specializing in graduate school? He can absolutely major in it (at 3 universities in our state), but I don’t want him to discount all the other schools.
I need words.