Because S19 applied to so many LACs with very little activity at our school (most with less than ten applying over three years), we sat down with our GC and she was willing to spill the beans on each of the accepted kids to these schools - whether they were athletes or legacies or went ED. And, no surprises, almost all were athletes who went ED. So, it felt risky for S19 to be applying to these schools RD. And THAT’S why he applied to 13 schools!
I don’t think Naviance has the capability to designate legacy or athlete. That would be an interesting data point to add, but it would likely peel back some of the “ privacy” of those behind the dots.
@wisteria100 Our school seems to have stopped collecting data on ED applicants too. It’s just accepted/denied for the most part. I think this is in part to privacy concerns.
This whole conversation is fascinating to me. Thanks all. Son is from inner city public Dallas school with an IB program. Demographics 65% latino, 27% Caucasian, rest African American. There is a TAG magnet school in the city that is highly ranked but the kids who want a comprehensive HS experience go to ours, although most of high achieving students in city are in private schools. Last 2 Vals went to Harvard EA and were URM females. We used to have a Naviance program but no data collected- and I sure wish it was there. I now realize I am not aware of anyone in last 10 years that has gone or applied to a NESCAC except one to Hamilton who was a legacy and one to Colgate last year full pay ED- one legacy to WL. No other Ivy admits in years. This year we have a questbridge to Davidson, and one admitted ED to Wellsley (maybe first gen) . My son applied as current Val (Caucasian) with 1580, SAT II 800, 770, all 4/5’s of the 6 AP’s he took prior to IB diploma program, student body pres, heavy music / theater/ debate, good internships blah blah. We were financially unable to risk ED. He has been admitted RD to Bowdoin ( Faculty Scholar) and Bates, WL at Colby, Williams, Haverford; rejected Swarthmore. He contacted Amherst when they were coming to town asking them to visit his HS and they basically said you can miss school and go to where we are at the TAG magnet… My point is I am now realizing how important the school connection is, and guess I didn’t fully realize it. Feel very very fortunate on his current admits, and will certainly assess the role of school connections when my younger son goes through this crazy process! Whew!!!
We have Naviance at our school. While it can provide some useful information, it also causes problems. Especially when people mistake correlation and causation. I find many of these conversations regarding race, legacy and athlete somewhat disconcerting because they minimize the possibility that someone actually was admitted on their own merits, that maybe the POC or the athlete is smart. Blackish had an excellent episode on last night regarding this very issue.
Hope mine did not come across that way. Did give demographic info but I was not indicating the folks admitted were not admitted on their merits- all excellent students.
Not always excellent students. ACT of 19 going to Brown for football from our school. We know because he’s telling everyone and laughing. And we’ve known this kid since kindergarten and he’s a rotten student.
@carolinamom2boys - I don’t think it’s necessary to jump to the conclusion that discussing race involves a suggestion that students of color did not get in on their own merit. I think all of us know that schools are full of wonderful kids with great grades and high SAT scores. It’s no secret that the road is tougher if, scores being equal, you’re a suburban white kid and don’t have a hook or connections of some sort. Doesn’t take anything away from the kids who are qualified and DO have a hook. At least, that’s the way I see it.
And to be clear that football player is white and wealthy. So bonus for Brown. Full pay.
Also, with regard to @homerdog’s anecdote about Brown - I have a friend whose nephew went to Brown. He says the kid only got in because he was a rower. I also know that a girl from my hometown - mom was a friend of mine from school track team - who was being heavily recruited by the track coach. I’m sure this girl is a good student, but we’re talking rural public school, and this is going to make me sound awful, but I went to school with her Dad and my mom had him as a student, and he’s dumber than a rock. So, unless the brains came from somewhere else …
The ironic thing is, she rebuked their efforts - wants to go to school locally for PT or something. Anyway, here I am with a kid who was deferred ED from Brown (with a 3.9 GPA, all honors/APs and a 1560 SAT score) and a girl at his school was accepted ED for track. I’m trying not to wonder whether, if my friend’s daughter had decided to go to Brown, maybe there wouldn’t already be one acceptance from our school. Odds of them taking two from our school I think are slim to none. Ugh.
@Trixy34 I disagree, and I didn’t jump to conclusions.
@carolinamom2boys I do agree with your assessment. I think at some of the most selective colleges being an athlete, URM, from Montana, etc is part of what helps push some of these kids over the top, it’s not just why they were admitted. That data does not come through on Naviance and other similar tools.
I am a firm believer of “the more hooks” the better. That’s how it works in many instances at highly selective schools.
So, a kid that is a very good student, recruitable athlete, from Montana, that is full pay checks off a lot of boxes. Or really smart, URM, that plays the tuba in marching band, and is National Debate Team winner, is what admissions looks for.
It’s not always good enough to have just ONE thing, like being an athlete, or being a POC, or perfect test score guy, or Science Olympiad champ . They want multiple boxes checked.
I sat through a great admissions presentation once that broke down how admissions views each application, and how they can pick it apart, and then sort them into yes/no/maybe. The admissions counselor then said even if the kid checked off a lot of boxes, if they couldn’t get a sense of whether the kid was an “actual nice person” they would not extend an offer. They went out of their way to say they do everything they can to not let jerks on campus because who wants to deal with a jerk for 4 years instead of someone nice and helpful.
I was just telling the truth. If everyone wants to believe that all recruited athletes are good students, they will be unpleasantly surprised at some point. Why sugarcoat it? Many strong students have to watch lesser students going to the schools they had hoped for. It’s not racist or jealous, it’s just reality.
I also used to believe that all Ivy league athletes had to be very strong students as well as great athletes. I’m sure that many of them are, but now I have personal evidence that it is not the case. I guess I would have thought you had to at least be a pretty good student but that is not true for some. Oh well.
@elena13 And of course some Ivy league athletes are very bright. It’s well known at our school that, for the long distance track kids, you have to run a 4:20 mile and have above a 34. Our two runners who hit that mark are going to Cornell and Wash U as recruited athletes. The Brown football player was recruited at the very last minute. I have a feeling that Brown already had it’s high stat football players and they could allow themselves to take our high school’s student because, even with his ACT, the average on the team hit some mark.
I think at Nescacs and other selective lacs the academic bar is fairly high for most athletes. At Ivies, because they are Division 1 sports, there could be more that get by with low stats. Even still, the 19 at Brown is shocking
@momsquared33 Bowdoin and Bates are great outcomes - Congrats to your S
@homerdog To meet the Academic Index individual minimum of 176 (I have also seen 171), a student with a 19 ACT would need above a 3.9 GPA on a 4.0 scale (assuming said student did not take subject tests). I assume no way this student has that high a GPA (and Ivies are supposed to take rigor into account as well). Troubling. Sigh.
My family approached the application process differently than many. My sons chose schools that they would like to attend and submit an application to be considered for admission. They never felt entitled to a " spot". I understand being frustrated if you are not accepted somewhere. I don’t understand feeling like someone took your spot.
At the Ivies, there seems to be more slack given to certain sports, like football. I can tell you from personal experience that my son was told he needed every single score on standardized tests to be in the 700’s, certain # of AP classes, certain GPA. So maybe some athletes there get a break, but I don’t think most do. Most of those kids are going to an Ivy to play a sport are very good athletes, and could probably take a paying scholarship from multiple schools, They are also solid students, who choose pursue their sport, with no athletic scholarship, and want a more academic experience.
At other D1 schools, there is a bare minimum standard for recruitment. Very basic. If the kid meets those standards the coach may get the green light to recruit them.
The Nescac has their own formula, and I don’t know what it is. But from my experience, my son who is one of those kids that checks all sorts of boxes, was told directly that his application wasn’t a slam dunk. So again, most of those kids are not only good athletes and good students, and maybe good at some other things too.
At a neighboring school, they used to publish a ‘book’ that listed stats for each school applied to and then would annotate the numbers with the hooks. ie; School X 25 applied, 10 accepted, 5 wl. Of the 10 accepted, 2 legacies, 1 athlete, 2 URM etc. They stopped doing it though - perhaps for privacy reasons