@carolinamom2boys I know it’s crazy! The thing is, though, that the kids who are in these science classes are exactly the kind of kids who score very high on standardized tests. Many go to Ivies or highly selective schools and they can only manage to get somewhere in the 80s in these science classes. It’s not a good thing. The teachers even say that the kids are expected to learn the material on their own. There’s little to no lecturing and the kids expected to learn the concepts from the assigned reading (textbook and websites). Most time in class is in the lab. For many kids, it kills their love of science as these classes are not inspiring. The science department insists, though, that they prepare for them for college science. I’m not sure yet if S19 will be studying science in college, so I don’t know if we will ever find out!
@homerdog To be honest , the expectations of your son in his classes is consistent with the expectations in most Honors and AP classes at our school so I’m not sure why there is an assumption that the rigor or expectations at your school is higher than other schools .
I agree with both @payn4ward and @carolinamom2boys
@mom23travelers his targets are lottery schools already. And they are filled with applicants who juggle crazy loads, invent things, save orphans and the like. Those kids though also have stellar gpas to match the test scores. I hate to be a wet blanket but the goals are unrealistic without a high gpa. It is unfortunate and frustrating when we see our kids not living up to their potential.
That said. My S19 very much marches to his own drum. Always has. Lives in his own world, very easily distracted into things he has passion for and will spend hours and hours and hours on something that has little or no grade value (but high interest value) versus the things that do “count”. Will deliberately prioritize by interest, versus “weight” if that makes sense. Missing assignments have been the death of him and his gpa for years. Last year, French 3 about killed me. And regular world history and health. Classes that bored him, he didn’t find important or got behind and didn’t know how to catch up (and would rather eat nails than admit he didn’t understand something or ask for help). I was really really struggling with how to help him. A few folks suggested to me (based on more info than this) that maybe he had ADD. Which I didn’t see at all. My S17 has ADHD and it manifests itself very differently and in a more traditional sense. But after a fair amount of research I decided it was worth having him tested. I had told him this at the beginning of summer. He had an insane amount of summer homework and was “committed” getting it done and being proactive. He was not. At all. Three weeks before school started we had him tested. Initial results were as I expected with a diagnoses of no ADD. However, upon discussing it further, jointly, with his doctor, he had him take the adult version of the test and we received dramatically different results.
He agreed to a 3 week trial of medication but we were all pretty skeptical. Much as I think we all kind of wish otherwise…the medication flips a serious switch in his brain and allows him to be very focused and efficient. He has more time for his fun things (building his own computer, screenwriting, cartography) despite the heavy load, is on top of things with his EC’s, is getting to bed SO much earlier than last year and is generally a much happier more pleasant kid. Interestingly enough it’s helped his running as well. Not that it is an actual performance enhancer but it allows him to focus on the running and not be distracted by the color of the trees or the runner going the other way or reading a sign or what have you. He has wholeheartedly embraced it and luckily has zero side effects and doesn’t feel it impacts his personality (which is not the case with his brother so he was understandably concerned).
I am not suggesting that is the issue of course but I will say I am glad that we explored it. We waited longer with his brother (spring of junior year) and he cannot recover from the gpa damage the way S19 can. He is funny though, very clear to point out that he does not have the “H” in the ADHD (since no one seems to use ADD anymore).
@homerdog if teachers choose to curve (or weight within the test grades themselves as it is an honors class), as they must be, then you could make an 80 an “A” in any class. The vast majority of our teachers do not curve and an 80 is a low B, on the verge of a C. Our honors chem expects the kids to learn the material on their own. It is daily self study, not actual homework most of the time but a LOT of self study.
@carolinamom2boys who knows. When national merit scholars and kids with a 36 ACT are averaging in the high 80s in these classes, I’m not sure what to make of it. These kids do indeed end up with over a 90 in other honors and AP classes. It’s just the science department that has lower threshold for an A. I don’t think it’s grade inflation since only about 40 percent end up over 80 percent according to the science chair. It’s not lowered to 80 to give more kids an A.
@eandesmom Thanks for sharing that story. Your son certainly sounds like mine in some regards (prioritizing by interest). I’ll have to think about all this.
@mom23travelers a lot of what your wrote rang really true for me. When S19 was really little honestly, we thought he was lazy. He would absolutely refuse to do anything that didn’t interest him, or that is what we thought. He was very good at finding things that did interest him, or just being solitary, plenty going on in his mind all the time. His K teacher pointed out he was a perfectionist and that if he couldn’t do it right, he just wouldn’t do it as he didn’t want to be wrong. We were pretty skeptical and that night went out for dinner. It was right around this time of year and they had the placemats you color in. His asked him to spell out Halloween. He absolutely refused to even try and had a meltdown when we wouldn’t give him the answer. He didn’t want to be wrong. We tested her theory in several different ways and she was spot on. S19 tested into our gifted program in 1st grade, starting in 2nd and over the years we have always felt there was a slight Aspie element to much of his behaviour which was pretty common with his self contained gifted class cohort. That program worked well for him but once mainstreamed it was easy for him to try and rely on just acing all the tests and skipping the stuff that didn’t interest him.
Which again, appeared to be a combination of laziness, disinterest and frankly what I call intellectual arrogance. It really never occurred to me that focusing was an actual issue for him, it seemed a very deliberate choice much of the time, or a deliberate prioritization based on his values, versus the worlds. I sat on the idea suggested by some friends, all last spring. This is a kid who had Cambridge as his dream school, CalTech at times and others (not ivy but selective nonetheless). It hit him last summer that he’d killed that with his freshman year GPA and he changed his goals. I had to sit down and show him that test scores alone wouldn’t get him where he wanted to go (or the money to get him other options!) Which to a point is fine but it seemed like a concession without a real attempt to address the root cause. I figured at that point it couldn’t hurt to do the evaluation, and then a med trial.
For us, it was a low risk test. We take the boys to our pediatrician who I trust implicitly, as do the boys. It was a simple test, not the full pricey workup some Psychiatrists will do. And it was covered by insurance. I fought the suggestion and idea for years with S17 and in hindsight, I did him a disservice. It wasn’t until he came to me mid way through sophomore year in tears asking to be tested, that I took him in. There are different reasons we waited on him and most I think we might do again but still, I wish I could have helped him catch that prior to starting HS. At least with S19 he started almost a year ahead.
Really bright kids can hide it for a long time. They develop coping skills but at a certain point in HS, it can come to a head. Generally there are 3 points for diagnosis. Early elementary where the kid is a hyper disruptive kid in class, labeled by teachers and peers. Middle school when the multiple periods and classes overwhelms the organizational ability. High School when they can’t focus long enough for the deeper tasks for good reading comprehensions, as well as increased organizational/prioritization challenges.
S17 only takes it on school days, which isn’t recommended really but it works for him. He is desperate to not take it at all and develop his own coping skills and I am confident he will do so. S19 on the other hand is thrilled with the results and it’s just been easy. I am sure he too will skip taking it over the summer but it has been super rewarding to see him shine in school. I am sure it is helped by the fact that the classes are harder. He does much better when challenged, interested and engaged and this year…he loves his classes, even if he doesn’t love all of the teachers. Win Win combo.
He still hates being wrong. Everything is black and white and there is no grey. But he’s able to roll and recover a lot more easily than before. Having ADD doesn’t mean there isn’t still that Aspie element but he is able to leverage some of those qualities much more effectively now.
Hi, I’m part of the hs c/o 2019, and I just wanted to see if any of you might know the answer to a question of mine.
So, my parents are getting divorced, and my mother’s really worried about having to move, buy a new house and pay for my education all while providing my father with alimony (he’s never really had a steady job, and, without going too much into nj divorce law, she’ll have to give him ~30% of her yearly salary for the next ~10 years).
Will my father only have to help pay for my education if he chooses to? And, will his assets be considered when applying for fin. aide (not really sure how that works in general, haha)?
Thanks for your help
@northeastgirl24 look into NJ law, I seem to remember someone mentioning that both parents need to contribute to a (public) education after divorce?
But your mom might want want to make sure that the divorce decree addresses that.
Of course if your mom is required to support your dad anyway, I’m not sure how that will work.
You might want to make sure you apply to some instate colleges that would be affordable. Are you staying in NJ?
You might get merit at some schools, and then you could take a student loan and earn money in the summers. And then hopefully your mom and dad can contribute some money.
It will vary by the kind of school. A FAFSA only school will only count your mothers income and assets. A PROFILE school may look at your Fathers, but they may not. When it gets closer and you have a list of schools you can determine which schools will look at his income and assets or not.
Filing is based on prior prior years taxes. So, if your parents are divorced during the 2017 tax cycle, it will only be looking at your mom’s info assuming she is filing solo at that point.
The divorce decree will include a parenting plan that will call out, legally, how post secondary school education is to be addressed. However, to be honest, it doesn’t really matter what that document says. FAFSA only schools will look at your mom’s income and assets and as I mentioned above, PROFILE schools “may” look at your dads. Schools that do ask for your fathers info will expect him to contribute, regardless of whether your mom is paying alimony, or not. These will be more selective private schools. State schools are FAFSA only, as are many privates.
The best thing you can do right now is look for state schools as they will be likely to be the most affordable. Rutgers, Rowan and TCNJ are all solid options for most kids. It will likely be too early for her to know what affordable is, the dust will need to settle first. The good news, is it will settle by then. However, you can get an idea of what it would cost in today’s tuition dollars by running net price calculators at colleges using only your mom’s info. The Net Price calculators will estimate your EFC (Expected Family Contribution) and that is the number your mom will be expected to pay, at a minimum, at schools. Merit awards/scholarships can reduce that number. As can loans, work study, etc. but the idea is to minimize or avoid the latter!
Focus on good grades and test scores, there are merit opportunities out there for good students especially if you are willing to consider the south and midwest. As a sophomore you are in a great place, timewise, to really shape what your grades and scores look like so that’s fabulous. Community College for a couple of years and then a transfer is also an option that may be worth pursuing.
Hugs. I am sure this is hard and stressful but there are a ton of folks here on this board in general that can help!
Hugs @northeastgirl24 !!! We may not have the specific answer but we can always research!!
I don’t think it’s a legal requirement that there be a post-secondary education plan spelled out in a divorce decree in Jersey - my husband and his ex certainly did not have any such thing. Financial responsibility, in terms of who paid for what, ended at age 18. Everything after that has been by consent - not because of anything legal.
@Gatormama I am not sure it is required but it is common for it to be addressed. I do not know about NJ. Here, child support is not part of the divorce decree, it is typically a supporting document, called the parenting plan. The order of support is tied to the parenting plan and the parenting plan to the decree.
At any rate there are a lot of ways it could be adressed. It could clearly state support ends at 18. It could say that support for post secondary is to be split, assign percentages or covered all by one parent or the other. Or it could say TBD, or to be decided by parents later (both my support order and my H’s read similarly this way.
My point is, that it doesn’t matter at all what it says. Colleges do not care what is legally or not legally required.
FAFSA only schools, only look at custodial parent income. Custodial means more than 50% of the nights (not necessarily more than 50% of the $$). Custodial parent could be just the mom or dad but will include income from a stepparent, if the custodial parent remarries. That part can really trick people up as they are not expecting it.
PROFILE schools also only look at custodial parent income. Some PROFILE schools require income information from the Non Custodial Parent. Regardless of what a decree says or doesn’t say, those schools expect the Non Custodial Parent (NCP) to contribute.
In messy situations…sometimes it makes life a lot easier to focus on FAFSA only schools or PROFILE schools that do not require the NPC. Also, PROFILE schools want a ton more financial information and look at assets, etc quite a bit differently than FAFSA does.
^^^^^^^ Believe me, I can only look at FAFSA schools because of a very messy situation.
@VANURSEPRAC What is a FAFSA school?
@VANURSEPRAC I hear you there. I breathed a sigh of relief this year when 2 of my S17’s schools dropped PROFILE and went FAFSA only. He still has one PROFILE school but they don’t ask for the NCP form so I dealt with it. But ugh. Not fun at all.
The idea of requesting waivers (even if our chancres are quite good) gives me hives.
@carolinamom2boys it just means FAFSA is the only financial aid form that school requires. It’s pretty simple whereas the PROFILE is quite invasive.
Thanks @eandesmom We only had one school that required the CSS profile last year. It’s been so long ago, I can at even remember what was on there except the value of real estate and retirement .
http://www.divorcesource.com/ds/newjersey/college-tuition-payments-in-new-jersey-3904.shtml
^^found this info. I don’t have any direct knowledge of this. But I have heard people mention this on CC regarding NJ specifically.
We, on the other hand, will likely gravitate toward profile schools, because we have messy finances that simply would not be beneficial to us as reflected on the FAFSA form, from everything I’ve read. Hubby is self-employed and income varies hugely from year to year, plus we have an interest in an LLC. It’d be nice if all that meant we were able to afford the supposed EFCs I’ve generated in the brief tinkering I’ve done on various sites, but it usually leaves us struggling to make ends meet. I’m hoping profile schools can assess us a bit more fairly. I’m also hoping that 2017 is a really crappy year for my husband’s income, as that will be the year that counts for our kids’ first FAFSA. Ironic, isn’t it, that I hope for such a thing.
EFC is only a number used to determine the amount of loan that you qualify for. Many people believe that that is the number you will have to pay, when that isn’t actually the case.
The second grading period is nearly over here and it’s just been a slog for D19. I posted here before about our situation. Briefly, she was always regarded as a “gifted” student in our old school district in AZ. She was never challenged in school and got straight As without exerting any effort. She’d do homework for one class during another class. It wasn’t a very good school district, but she had a legitimate shot at valedictorian at her school because no one was doing better than her.
I got a new job in TX and decided to move to one of the better school districts and load her schedule with honors classes and one AP class.
We now realize that it’s just too much for her. At first, we thought her “bad” grades in first grading period was just a matter of her getting used to having to actually study for the first time in her life. But now her grades are even worse. As it stands now, her GPA would be a weighted 3.71 this semester and an unweighted 3.14 (2 Cs in honors classes, 2 Bs in honors classes, and 3 As in non-honors classes). She can still bring her grade up and it’s possible that one or even both of her Cs will be Bs before the grading period ends.
She’ll be lightening her load next year. She definitely won’t be taking honors math and might not even take honors history. (She keeps saying that AP world history is easy because it’s “just memorization,” but the C in that class tells us otherwise.)
Based on her previous standardized tests, we expect her to get a minimum of 29-30 on the ACT. (Hopefully higher if she preps for it). But she won’t be getting automatic admission to state schools (TX auto admits the top 10% to state schools) at the rate she’s going.
She appears to be working hard, so we don’t know what the issue actually is. Maybe it’s because of the absurd cross-country schedule, where she has to wake up at 5 am every morning to get in her morning run. Luckily, that’s over in a week and maybe she can bring her semester grades up.
We don’t even know if there’s anything we can do. My wife thinks we should do something, but it seems likes she’s always studying. School is just tougher here than she is used to.