@TS0104 I totally understand what you are feeling in terms of you wanting to go to the high school graduation b/c you are part of the community. It sounds much like my older two kids’ high school community. The situation with S21 was not due to that though, as my younger son went to a different high school, about 45 mins away, for a specific program that school offered to kids with LDs. Leaving his former classmates/friends (who mostly went to the same h.s. my older two went to) was a big deal for my introverted son, but he excelled there! And also got out from under his older brother’s shadow. He even tried out for a sport he’d never played before (rugby), but we found out at his graduation that he made “all conference” for rugby. He had suffered from lack of self confidence and a bit of inferiority complex, so skipping out to attend his sister’s graduation instead would not have been a “good look” for us, and I’m sure he would have been bummed that we missed out when he learned he made all conference. Even if he insisted he didn’t care, I know deep down he would remember if we had chosen his sister’s graduation over his.
D text me today to say she wants to set aside time tomorrow for a long call to discuss grad school applications. Since she is overseas she isn’t getting any real guidance from either school (the one she’s at or course, nor her home school). She thinks she wants to forego the GRE and she has some ideas about specialties and where she doesn’t want to live… so I guess my guidance counselor days aren’t quite over yet.
@milgymfam can I join in? (Just kidding). But that’s on my mind too, and my DS19 is abroad for the semester. I don’t know anything about grad school or application timeframes, but he says it is his plan to go (for Psychology…which I’ve heard can be very hard to get in). What is a general application and prep timeframe? (He will graduate in May 2023).
It’s my understanding that most apps will be due in December, and she’ll have to hit the ground running in September to secure her three recommendations and get her cv and personal statement in order. I have no clue how competitive the grad school apps will be, and it’s probably for the best that I don’t- I don’t need that stress in my life. Ha. She’s planning to apply to eight schools- two in Italy and six in the US (had planned to apply to Oxford, but decided she needs more sunshine). Her list seems very reach heavy at the moment, but I also can only judge that based on name.
If she were planning to apply to schools that required tests, she’d be prepping for those now with the plan to take them in summer and early fall.
We’re on this road as well, although probably going in the other direction, as S19 is thinking about going to graduate school in the UK. He wants to do sports psychology, and the UK seems to be the leader in that field. It’s rather complicated, as it seems he might need to do a one-year “conversion” program before entering the master’s program, depending on whether the British Psychological Society will accept his US undergraduate degree or not. I’m hoping that the professor who’s set him off on this path will help him figure out how it all actually works!
Hard to believe that some of these kids are planning for grad school already! Crazy. I think S19 will be applying to a few deferred entry MBA programs in the fall (he would work for a few years after graduation and then return to school), so I guess he’ll need to look into taking the GMAT or GRE in the summer? He’s thinking that the company where he’s doing his summer internship will pay for the MBA but who knows. He could definitely change directions between now and then.
S is loving Barcelona and will be turning 21 on Friday. He wants to just do a low key night cooking for friends, but I think there will be a few nights of going out to the clubs, especially since the curfew in Barcelona is ending tomorrow. He recently went to Madrid for a weekend, and then went to San Sebastian and was surfing in freezing cold water! He’s also planning a trip to Bulgaria and then Dublin for St. Patrick’s day (lots of kids from his college will be there). Must be nice!
I’m looking forward to our trip to visit him next month, and it has been very fun doing the planning (we’ll be in Paris for a few nights and then Barcelona). It’s definitely helping me get through the winter!
@tkoparent kind of crazy that they might need another year when a US undergrad is already a year longer than a British one! I understand that the specifics of courses matter, but still. Is there a particular university that stands out there or is it just that the UK in general is good in that field?
It think it would be possible to do a Master’s in Psychology even without doing the conversion course, but then the student would not be accredited by the British Psychological Society, which seems to be important in the UK system. The BPS has a Sports and Exercise Psychology Division and there about 20 colleges that have participating graduate programs. Loughborough University seems to be particularly well-regarded in this field, and S19 is very interested in that school. Of course, Loughborough doesn’t offer a conversion course! I’m sure (at least I hope) he/we will figure this all out in due course! At the moment, he is focused on perhaps doing a summer research project with one of his professors in this field, so we are hoping that works out. He’s had Covid for the past 10 days or so, which has pretty much ended the indoor track season for him for this year, so it would be nice if something positive happens next. In any event, it’s kind of convenient having a kid who’s studying psychology - anything can be presented as a learning experience! I still tend to think that, although our kids have had their college careers disrupted, they have been luckier than the classes of 2020 and 2021 in that they had a normal high school senior year and at least one normal college semester before everything went sideways. Fingers crossed that next year will be more like that first semester.
Sorry about the delay - I was visiting family.
D19 is already looking at grad schools - she is planning to do a PhD in Neuroscience. She has already decided on most of her list, and is creating an organizer to help her keep the process smooth (where she wants to apply, what are required, faculty to contact, responses, etc).
At the moment, none of the PhD programs on her list have GREs as part of the application.
She has the advantage that both her parents are academics (and her mom is very well networked). Midd is also very good at helping kids who want to go on to grad schools.
BTW, I can share what knowledge I have on PhD applications, if anybody needs it. I do not know enough on masters programs to be helpful.
@elena13 Barcelona is my favorite European city!
D20 has started the research/conversations with her professors in regards to grad school. She currently has a list of 13 schools, none of which requires the GRE.
Neither of her parents are academics, so I would love to hear more @MWolf about your thoughts in regards to grad school/grad school apps. D20 chose her school in no small part because of their good reputation with grad school placement and that reputations doesn’t seem misplaced, but I don’t want to rain all my questions down on her and possibly stress her out unnecessarily.
It seems from what she has shared with me that the two professors she has whose subject fields are closest to what she is interested in studying are planning to shepherd her through the application process with regards to recommendations, introductions and help with her essays/work chosen to be submitted. One of those professors is also the campus Fulbright advisor and he is talking to her about that process as well.
I will lean into any advice you have to offer. We are not of that world, really, and I’m definitely out of my depth. She is focused in on Italian PhD programs. There really aren’t that many of them, and I have no idea how competitive they are- I assume there is no such thing as a safety when it comes to PhD admissions? She has the full support of the department head of her major, and has her three recommenders lined up. Her department is made up entirely of native Italian speakers who attended college/graduate school in Italy, so they’re honestly not as familiar with the US system as she had hoped.
@beebee3 @milgymfam Your daughters should take advantage of every bit of help and support offered.
PhDs are, in essence, an apprenticeship, and admissions are based on the chances that a student will end up with a “good” PhD (publications and possibly awards), and how well they will fit in the graduate student community and with their PhD advisor (for STEM how they will fit in their lab). That means that a lot is dependent on the student’s CV, their cover letter, the work they have done, and letters of recommendation are critical. Applications are read by a graduate committee, which is made up of faculty, and, in some programs, also graduate students. So admissions are determined by faculty members, not professional AOs.
GPA (and GRE when needed) are often there mostly for triage - reducing the 200 applications to 30 or so. While many PhD programs do not have official minimum GPA and test scores, that is because they want to be able to make exceptions. However, even at those programs, when the applications come in, those which have GPAs or GRE scores below their cutoff are culled even before they get to the grad committee.
In some cases, if a prospective students has contacted a potential advisor, and they have attracted that advisers attention, that potential adviser will pull their application out to be considered, even if the GPA and/or GREs are lower than the cut-off. I knew a students who was accepted with a undergraduate GPA of 2.7, because they has stellar research experience, and a LoR from a really Big Name in the field.
To risk repeating myself, what the committee is looking for is evidence that this student wants to do research, knows what research entails, and understand their chosen field enough that they have a basic understanding of what research in their particular field entails.
I come from Ecology, and the number of students who make inquiries who think that it’s all about going out and watching animals in exotic locations is, well, actually, not all that surprising (I love David Attenborough, but sometimes…).
So the entire application is a demonstration of the student’s research ability, and understanding of the field. So the GPA is mildly important, but the field-specific GPA is more important. The GRE is important, but, for humanities, the verbal sections are what are important.
That is also why the CV, LoRs and cover letter are so important.
The committee wants to see that there are examples of research activity on the CV, or practical experience in the field. If there are publications of presentations, it’s better. In fields in which publications by undergraduates are really uncommon, they like to see work done by the student.
The cover letter/essay is how the student introduces themself, and allows them to demonstrate that they have passion for the field, and that they have that basic notion of what research entails.
That is also why LoRs are so critical. They should be from academics, especially from academics who have had the opportunity to evaluate the student’s research abilities. Because they are humans, because they are not professional admissions people, and because academia is prestige ridden, grad committee are more impressed by LoRs from bigger names or from people they know and respect.
People apply to PhD programs both directly out of undergraduate, and after a few years outside. Something new that I learned, is that since people who have been outside generally have more accomplishments, applicants like our kids are selling “potential”, rather than a full CV. So their CV and cover letter should be “rich” with indications of potential. Faculty mentors are a big help is putting that together.
In general, advice for potential PhD students is often the opposite of the advice we give to high school students. They should contact faculty members in potential programs, specifically faculty members who are potential PhD advisors. If they make that connection, and the faculty member is interested, that can determine whether the students will be considered. This is often where the lack of official cutoffs in GRA and GPA kicks in. If a potential student has a faculty member who is interested in them, especially of they have something like work experience and a LoR from a Big Name in the field, they can be accepted despite a low GPA or GRE score.
Cold-contacting is OK, if a prospective student’s mentor does not know that faculty member. If the mentor knows that person, it can be better with an introduction. So having a faculty mentor saying “hi, Jane, here’s my student who is looking at your program” is good. However, if the mentor does not know Dr. Jane, the student should be the one making the contact.
Also, as I wrote, academia is prestige-ridden. So, again, in stark contrast to advice for potential undergraduate students - the prestige of a PhD program is extremely important. If a student is interested in a career outside of academia, they should look at the job placements of a PhD program in non-academic settings.
Other advice:
- Before starting with an adviser, prospective students should also have a one-on-one with present and past students of that professor. There should be a match between an advisor and student. Some students do better with a more hand-on approach, others prefer to only interact with their adviser a couple of times a semester. Some prefer having a close-knit lab (or whatever an advisor’s set of students are called in humanities), others prefer to be more on their own, or prefer to interact with a larger set of grad students.
It is also important to know that, because a student is entirely dependent on the PhD adviser, that is a situation that is ripe for all sorts of abuse. There are sexual predators, advisers who steal ideas and research from their students, ones who are “tiger” advisors, constantly driving their students to work 24/7, etc. Other faculty can be very bad about warning potential students of this, so speaking to former graduate students of an adviser is a good idea.
Mentorship is critical, since it will help a student succeed in getting things like publications done, which are critical in getting a job. Mentorship is also critical in succeeding in that job, especially academia. Many young faculty fail because their advisors and mentors did not prepare them for academic life (AKA “Mentored By Wolves”).
- Potential grad students should not only check out advisers, but also the grad program. Different programs work differently, and match there is important. It’s also good to know what sort of support the program has for conference travel, study at other universities, or how many years are guaranteed for TA/RA support, how much of that is RAships versus TAships, how much grad students are paid, compared to CoL in the area, and overall mentorship.
The social interactions between graduate students are also important. Grad student social interactions can be supportive, ignore each other, or be incredibly toxic. So evaluating the grad student culture is also a good idea before accepting an offer.
Regarding “safety schools”. There are and there aren’t. Being accepted to a PhD program is dependent on the presence of potential advisers, and on those advisers looking for students, and the program having funding for students. Those things are independent of the qualifications of any prospective PhD student.
However, if all of those things exist, some programs can be almost sure things for highly qualified students. I have observed the way that faculty on graduate committees are really excited about some prospective students, based on their application, and on their interactions with the prospective students.
That’s the brain-dump for now. More later, or on request.
My one bit of advice, overriding all others I might give: Do not go to a PhD program that isn’t fully funded, and has a guarantee of multi-year funding. (At least three but that’s marginal, four is okay, five is good.)
@MWolf Wow thank you for all that helpful info, it fleshes out a lot that D20 had been telling me. Will probably be coming back with more questions, but will PM you so this thread doesn’t go completely off track.
@dfbdfb D20 is only looking at schools that offer 5 years fully funded in her field - it is so interesting to see what kind of funding is available and how funding is allocated. Some of the programs she is looking at include housing, others that she has looked at seem super stingy. Definitely have noticed some programs are very transparent in regards to funding, others quite opaque.
She is also very aware that if she isn’t offered full funding, it is essentially a ‘nope’. We made that very clear to her before she went off to college (we do have friends who are academics so we knew that piece) and thankfully the professor she is closest to also stressed that in their conversations.
Edited to Add: I have been reading about the situation at Harvard in their Anthropology department. That lawsuit was harrowing to read and opened my eyes to how incredibly predatory the relationships can be in grad programs. Whoa!
That is probably useful advice as a general rule, but are there quality programs that do not fund? My daughter will have an outside scholarship for grad school, so I wouldn’t want her to miss anywhere that would be a good choice for her.
No.
And I should probably just stop with that, but I will also say that if there is a quality program that offers acceptance but doesn’t also offer funding, they’re saying without saying-out-loud that they don’t want you.
(Disclaimer: This is for PhD programs and other equivalent doctorates, like the DA and DLitt. For professional degrees like the JD, MD, DO, AuD, DNP and so on, the whole funding system is radically different. And funding around the EdD is its own entire universe.)
Although that’s not always true outside the US, for example in the UK where funding tends to be decoupled from admissions. There are funding sources which are only available to a subset of students (eg those research council scholarships specifically for British domestic students) which means that better qualified students from other parts of the world may be left with partial funding or nothing at all, unless they bring money with them (eg Americans with Marshall scholarships and similar).
That’s not to say they expect you to come anyway and pay for it, merely that it’s on you to secure the funding (and they over-admit because they expect most won’t find the money). As such, a student with an outside scholarship can be a very attractive admit.
Quoting so that this is repeated. In fact, I would say that anything less than four year funding should not be considered, especially in the humanities. In general, a PhD in the humanities takes longer. This is partly because there is a lot more writing involved, and it has to be good (I have suffered through enough badly written STEM articles and theses), AND because it is actually more difficult to formulate a thesis topic in the humanities.
The other part is that many PhD programs in the humanities provide insufficient financial support, and many graduate students are spending a large amount of time working, usually as adjuncts. PhD programs in the humanities also have the terrible habit of paying grad students for a 1/2 time TA position, or a 1/4 time position (TAships are 1/2 time jobs at most) which requires them to work as a 1/2 time. So they are paid for 10 hours a week, and are working 20 hours, and their hourly pay is already pretty low. That means that they are trying to finish up their thesis while working at two jobs.
So always make sure that there is at least a 4 year commitment, and that its for 4 years of 9 month, full time TA/RA positions (20 hours a week).
That is one reason I do not recommend that students from the USA do their PhDs outside the USA, in a university which does not insure funding (unless the student is independently wealthy).
Oxbridge seems to prefer the independently wealthy PhD students - according to Oxford “just over 47% of our new graduate students received full or partial funding from the University or other funders”. That means that 53% of their graduate students are self-funded.
There are, however, places like EPFL in Lausanne, Switzerland, at which PhD students are also enrolled as employees of the school. They have very good pay, even considering the CoL in Switzerland, far better than what USA grad students get. Students at one of the Max Plank institutes get similar salaries as EPFL students. In general, Germany has very good funding for graduate students - they are considered university employees.
French universities provide similar pay as USA universities, considering CoL.
Something to remember, though, is that many of these international programs are also set up under the assumption that incoming students have a Masters degree, and so assume that the incoming students have a couple of years of graduate courses, and some background in research.
So, aside from having the requirement for a Masters (which may be waived because of USA’s four year degree), funding is often only assured for three years.
Although that should be read in the context of nearly 75% of Oxford graduate admissions being for taught courses (https://www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxford/Grad%20Admissions%20Statistics%20-%202019-20%20entry.pdf) which are typically not funded in the US either. Arguably it’s a bit easier to get funding for a standalone masters in the UK compared to the US, because it is a pre-requisite to apply for a PhD.
Thank you for the detailed response. This is incredibly helpful information as my daughter also embarks on the PhD path. Neither her dad nor I are academics so we’re completely out of our depth.