There is an unspoken assumption here that more depth in the major field is automatically better. I (as is presumably obvious, given my previous posts) question whether that is correct.
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The world would be an incredibly boring and unworkable place if everyone had an engineering degree. Or physics.
Or history, for that matter. Iād like to think we could agree that rigor and worth are not the exclusive province of STEM major courses.
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Yeah, I think this is trueā¦ most engineers I hire out of college, Iām not expecting them to actually be able to do the exact specific thing I need them to do. I expect them to have foundational knowledge and have proven that they can learn the type of things weāll have them do.
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Iām really not sure what āfunction in their major fieldā (as opposed to āfunction in and out of the workplaceā) means in practice, except where graduates are going on to a PhD. And in that case the US system does leave you less prepared (having to take a couple of years of taught courses before you start researching and writing your thesis).
I donāt use my math degree in the workplace. At best I use Excel, which wasnāt part of my college classes. I doubt most peopleās jobs have much to do with their major. The degree is simply demonstrating the ability to pursue a topic in depth (UK system) or a breadth of topics (US system).
But none of my kids have found their GE courses valuable, they were just more boxes to be ticked where you carefully pick the options that fulfill the most requirements with the least work. They would have happily traded those for more courses in their majors or more research opportunities. I agree being taught to write and analyze material is important, especially for STEM majors, but beyond that I donāt think thereās a significant benefit in or out of the workplace. If they wanted to boost skills useful in and out of the workplace then colleges would be teaching the use of software packages like Excel, not the science of cooking.
And I do find many of the GE areas to be loaded up with āCultureā, āRaceā and āEnvironmentā requirements where it is often important to fit in with the instructorās ethos if you want to do well (like the āScience as a Colonial Practiceā and āGaming as Activismā courses I mentioned earlier). Some might call that indoctrination, it is certainly a potential flash point in the ongoing culture wars.
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This is so true for my S21, who has mostly breezed through the typical āweed outā engineering courses with an A average. The classes that have challenged him and brought his GPA down a bit have been a few of the āeasy Aā classes heās taken to fill a general ed requirement. It seems he assumes the material will be easy so he doesnāt put in the same consistent effort that he does with his major classes. Engineering majors only have to take 4 or 5 of those classes over 8 semesters and there are tons to pick from, so students can find something that interests them.
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I think he was saying that there is value in learning things beyond what you need for a career since most people need to learn a lot of things in their career that werenāt taught in college anyway, so just taking more narrowly focused classes have a decreasing marginal utility from a career perspective.
For the GE classes you mentioned, I would say there could be value in those depending on how they are taught. Again, it might be a bit of a philosophical difference, but I think one of the best values of a college education is being taught to challenge your assumptions and expand your understanding of the world. Most 18 year olds have a very narrow worldview, due to a lack of experience. Being forced to apply rigorous thinking in more aspects of your life is potentially very useful in just living a good life.
Which is why it depends on the way those courses are taught. I can see an āScience as a Colonial Practiceā being a challenging class that forces a student to consider how their actions however well meaning could be harmful to othersā¦ ORā¦ it could just be a pedantic class made to make some people feel self important. No idea what it would be in this specific caseā¦
Iāve known some very ideologically minded professors give the highest marks to students who vigorously opposed their world views because they put in the work to back up their conclusions and applied the level of rigor the professor was looking forā¦ and Iāve also seen professors be petty for both ideological reasons and more mundane reasons like personality conflicts.
This is why the focus needs to be on academic rigor, vs focus on particular subjects.
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My major and minor were in STEM. My senior year, I took a family and consumer studies course (Family Violence) as a gen ed. I also took a stats class through that department the same semester because I wanted to learn to do simple stats by hand and it fit in my schedule.
I had no trouble with O chem, etc. I could have slept through that stats class. But Family Violence was hard. The in-class discussions were fascinating and challenging. Most of our writing assignments required self-reflection which was difficult for me. I got a C on a paper draft (that had never happened before). The majors in that class didnāt seem to struggle. They would be puzzling over their stats homework while sitting in Family Violence class. I barely eeked out that A- and it was one of my few in college. Wonderful prof and class, and so glad I took it.
My engineering major son is similarly challenged by some of his gen eds, and Iām glad heās taking them. It strengthens areas where he has weaknesses and makes him a better person. My sciencey spouse attended a SLAC and had a life-changing experience after reading books about mental illness in a gen ed. There are tradeoffs, and valid arguments about how college shouldnāt fill this role, but I personally like the US approach to college curriculum.
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But realistically, few STEM majors are going to do that level of work, and the non-STEM majors may not want to take the risk with their GPA.
The latter was the case with S18 who despite being both progressive and a very strong writer, found that he had to avoid the Marxist professors as much as possible. He ended up just parroting stuff back in the compulsory course with one very famous name (who told the classes she didnāt believe in grades and would give everyone an A, but he didnāt want to incur her wrath). That famous professor actually led his departmentās graduation ceremony and was sufficiently opposed to merit that she refused to recognize any of the award winners, summas etc.
Mine are at a college with a liberal arts curriculum and no real āfluffā classes. There are language, math, arts, and writing requirements as well as having to take classes in various knowledge domains. They have really enjoyed learning about topics outside of their chosen major. College is the time to learn from some great minds and to expand your own. My daughter graduated with two STEM majors, but also spent time taking classes such as sound production and stage lighting. She has used these āextraā classes to obtain some side gigs in audio production in theaters and with performing groups. I hope that college is less about checking the boxes and more about exploring intellectual interests and talents.
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It probably varies widely by college and the perspective of the students. I had a ton of distribution requirements at UCLA in subjects unrelated to my major that havenāt directly helped me in my work. But I do think it gave me general knowledge and perspective that helped in my world view and probably in my ability to adapt to work I was subsequently given. Tow of my kids were at LACs that sound similar to the above where you could pick your requirements to be the least offensive ā for example the easy science source for non-STEM majors. Not sure how much they really got out of that, particularly given their high school had already given them a pretty good survey.
S23ās college has at least 8 of its core classes which are not electives ā every student must take the same courses in literature, civics, writing, science survey, art and music. TBD what my student thinks of its worth in the end. Ironically I thought the science survey sounded super interesting ā tenured professors who are leaders in their fields spend several weeks each covering their subjects ā but my STEM-focused student felt it was too high level because of all the non-STEM students it had to cater to.
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If that is the case, then either your kidsā colleges were doing gen-ed wrong, or your kids werenāt understanding the larger point of postsecondary education (which is most definitely not simply to pick the courses that present the least difficulty).
If itās the latter, then hopefully they figured it out by the end. If itās the former, yeah, thatās a recognized issueātoo often gen-eds are simply presented as a āpick one from list A and two from list Bā with no coherence at all. But that is, fortunately, becoming less and less of an issue over time.
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D18 had to fit a BFA and Hons BS into four years (~155 semester credits), taking 22+ credits per semester, so the GEs that couldnāt be waived or used for her major were an added inconvenience. She did have some excellent scholarship cohort classes.
S18 would have preferred other classes that were more relevant to his research and longer term career ambitions, he wanted to add a minor in Digital Humanities but couldnāt fit in all the requirements because of his GEs.
In particular the lab section?
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I donāt understand your question.
Sorry - poor attempt at Dad humor.
(College courses sometimes have lecture portions and hands-on āLabā portions.
I figured that hands-on part could be particularly popular for a course about wine.)
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Ah. Took me a minute. In between semesters my brain takes a bit of a hiatus. 
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My daughter took a wine class. They did do wine tasting as well. 
True but Iām guessing the majority of college kids do exactly this - and look for easy profs on rate my professor - especially for the non major.
My daughter picked an advanced (non major) course, because she was passionate/curious about that topic and heard good things about the lecturer. She told us up front she already had all the grades she needed, and would just P/F it.
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Yep. I said majority. And my kids did this. Took classes of interest but it seems like most kids trade knowledge of who is easy etc. and my kids avoid those classes and profs that donāt match their need. Iād assume most are similar.
The majority of kids arenāt the kids who or whose parents frequent this website.
Itās assumed by me, not proven - but I hear it from my kids, their friends, etc and it makes sense.
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