<p>wherenext, exactly !!intparent, yours comments in general in my opinion denoted certain agenda against the UChicago. My point , as many others here, is that such a great University is just makings the accepted students wanted .Again, as a proud Mom of a class 2016 student, WELCOME Class of 2017, and congratulations !!</p>
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<p>40% of classes at U of Chicago are taught by a professor or a prof-to-be on the tenure track. 60% are not. This number has changed a lot in the past 10 years, it used to be a much higher % of professors teaching. I expect this is one way that the college has handled the increased number of undergrads while trying to keep costs down.</p>
<p>The % of classes taught by profs/tenure track teachers at my kid’s other top choices are 81%, 71%, and 65%. I would say that is a difference worth noting.</p>
<p>Class sizes are pretty good in many classes at U of C, but I have heard this is because of the commitment to keeping core classes small (brings down the average). My kid’s major (a science) seems to have larger class sizes. You can’t actually track down the true “average class” size in any of the U of C data that I can find, though. There are % ranges, but no average. I can see that there is a higher percentage of classes with over 50 people in them in at U of C vs. my kid’s other top choices, though.</p>
<p>Not trying to say U of C is bad. Like I said, my kid might go there. But there is a lot of frothing on the U of C forum about how fantastic the school is. I do not have an agenda against it, but many out here clearly have an agenda for it. It has some great qualities. But I wonder why a school that is marketing so hard hides its Common Data Set from view (every other school on my kid’s list has past CDS’s readily available for download… can’t find it anywhere for U of C). It makes it easy to compare many statistics across schools, and they don’t show theirs.</p>
<p>“Not to get argumentative on a U of C thread (when my kid might go there), but there are MANY other reasons people might choose another school”</p>
<p>There are, that’s why it makes me even more mad when students cite excessive amounts of marketing as a reason for not going or even applying to a school (this has actually happened here). I hate that WashU, where I have a very good friend who is currently having the time of her life and receiving an amazing education, gets so much flack for this when it has so many positive traits that actually have an influence the students’ experiences. If people DO want to criticize marketing ploys, then there are other practices to point out like Harvard’s proven tendency to send brochures to high school students it knows don’t stand a chance of getting in just to maintain their ridiculously low admission rate. I’m sure Harvard is not the only school that does this, and I’ll even be willing to include UChicago in the group, but I’m using it as an example because that is the last school that should be engaging in what I guess we should term “malevolent” marketing ploys, seeing as its reputation is all the marketing it needs. Still, given the chance, would I have turned downed Harvard because of that rather than for other reasons? No, nobody would turn down Harvard because of its marketing strategies, so this just shows how ludicrous and/or hypocritical these conversations can be. </p>
<p>“a preference for more courses taught by professors vs. TAs & adjuncts” </p>
<p>That is a valid point, and there are few other institutions, including LAC’s, that fare better than UChicago in this regard. If you want to go by statistics, UChicago has a higher percentage of classes with less than 20 students than even top LAC’s like Middlebury. As has been pointed out before, the Core literally guarantees at least one small, discussion based class in your first year, and the notion of TA’s teaching these is unheard of. Sa0209, a fellow First Year, has written an excellent post about his/her experience in this thread that is specifically about UMich vs UChicago for pre-med: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1449218-umich-vs-uchicago-pre-med-2.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1449218-umich-vs-uchicago-pre-med-2.html</a></p>
<p>Some stuff that I’ve posted on other threads and don’t have time to re-type:</p>
<p>“All core Hum and Sosc classes are capped at 19 students, and pretty much all consist of sitting in a huge round table and having group discussions about the texts. The professors are excellent and always give you a lot of feedback on your work, to the point where I’ve seen even A level essays (a rare sight, but not as impossible as some might assume) receive a whole page of comments. While the format is definitely not unique to UChicago, I recently spoke to students from two other highly top ranked schools (one of them an LAC, both top 10 in their categories) and they were surprised I was getting this experience as a freshman.”</p>
<p>“A lot of good points have been posted here, and I would just like to reiterate that LAC does not necessarily equal more personal attention and smaller classes than a university. I took a language class this quarter in my university as well as know several people who also took/have taken language classes, and I can attest to the fact that the vast majority (if not all) of the classes are small (the biggest number in the teens) and that the students enjoy a lot of personal attention from their professors. I don’t know what the exact cap is, but I guess around 19…You really need to look into the course offerings and class sizes of the specific schools you are interested in, the stereotypes don’t always hold up.”</p>
<p>“My experience so far, both outside and inside the classroom, has quite frankly been amazing. I’m taking four classes and honestly have no complaints about my teachers, including the one grad student that is teaching my math course. In fact, and I seriously was just discussing this with another person in my section recently, she’s devoted A LOT of time to our class (despite having to perform research), always scheduling extra office hours if needed, and has had an amazing amount of patience considering that my math level is actually one of the least math-loving ones. That one is my largest class, with 33 students, but considering that it mostly consists of lectures it doesn’t really matter. The tutorials are split up into groups of 11 students each, so any questions regarding the problem set that is due in the next class are always addressed, along with extra material that the tutor goes over to supplement the lectures. My other three classes are taught by professors, and all have been excellent. One of them is a language class, which aside from helping me improve my actual skills in that language, has also taught me a lot about the culture of the country in a way I wouldn’t have thought possible in just a span of 10 weeks. That class probably has around 15 students. My other two, my Humanities and Social Science classes, have lived up to the hype. Even when the text itself is not exactly very riveting (which happens rarely), the professor will find a way to foster class discussion. Both are capped at 19 students, and while most are always willing to contribute to the class discussions, the professors always make sure that the more shy students feel comfortable enough to voice their opinions without outright being forced to. In the case of my Humanities class (which is basically a philosophy class), he’s not hesitant to engage you one-on-one and prompt you to defend your stance (again, this is only if the student feels comfortable doing so). I actually made it a habit to stick around after my Humanities class to discuss any lingering thoughts I had about the topic, and the professor was always more than willing to stay.” </p>
<p>Sorry if there’s some redundancy in those quotes (have I mentioned how small our classes are?). If any prospective students or parents have any questions feel free to PM me.</p>
<p>I guess that more science oriented students might have a different experience with class sizes, so I won’t comment on that (though hopefully others can chime in), but I can try to dig up the data that is available for people with a USNews account regarding % of classes taught by professors. I’m honestly curious though, where did you find those percentages? That is a ridiculously low number, even for what I imagine the other top schools to be, so I’m wondering if it includes TA led discussion sections (which are meant to supplement, not replace the actual classroom experience).</p>
<p>Here is the adjunct information source:</p>
<p>[Academic</a> Workforce Summary Data](<a href=“http://www.mla.org/acad_work_data?id=144050]Academic”>http://www.mla.org/acad_work_data?id=144050) </p>
<p>I will say that the number listed in my post above includes medical school & other staff. If you take out med school, the numbers look better (54% tenured-tenure track vs. 46% adjunct). However, these numbers do not include TAs at all, so that would skew them downwards again compared to any LAC that does not have grad students (and thus no TAs).</p>
<p>In any case, the difference between 1995 and 2009 is striking. Every school I checked on my D’s list has made some move toward more adjuncts. But none had a swing nearly this big.</p>
<p>Jeez!!! Can you parents be any more jaded and unappreciative? The package struck us as a nice jester with a very nice note from the DOA. Each can decide to attend or not with whatever factors matter to each.</p>
<p>Intparent, I think you underestimate competence of other admitted (and their parents’). A couple of freebie is not going to lure a student away from a college (s)he finds herself/himself prefer over UChicago. Also, it will be ludicrous for a parent who is going to willing fork out quarter million or whatever cost it is to consider whether the school gives free hat/t shirt a decision factor. While my student did receive a scarf shortly after acceptance last year, we (both the student and parents) had not been showed by any of free t shirt, hat, handwrite notes, phone calls, etc. (admittedly, we would have loved and enjoyed it. Rather than worrying about grand marketing ploy, we would have been very delighted and flattered, but of course, nothing more:)).
My child actually changed her mind after attending school’s admitted student weekend - she saw herself fit best there, the classes she sit in, students she met, the city, the campus, the food (lol). While it was an extremely painful decision (actually the most difficult one in her life) to give up another school she initially thought was her first choice, so far, her experience at UChicago has been nothing but amazing. As a parent, admittedly, I did not do an intensive research on each schools in her list like what you are doing now with college common data set at the time, I simply wanted my child to be in a environment she sees herself happy, to explore her potential and grow as a person. Now, observing numerous opportunities available to her from the school, helps and supports from her professors and TAs and watching her grow intellectually and socially at UChicago-beyond my wildest dream, it is impossible for me not to love the school and feel grateful. I think other parents or students who say positive things about the school here share the same sentiment with me. I do not know what agenda we can possibly have?
Wish your child best of luck and continuing success in her college application and decision.</p>
<p>happyfit, exactly!!</p>
<p>Happyfit-what a nice post. When did your D go to the accepted students weekend last year. In April? I am excited for my D to go, but nervous as well. I don’t know if I want her to fall in love with UChicago or not. Selfishly, I want her closer but I want her to find her fit!</p>
<p>I did look for the CDC for some of her schools but only 4 had them. Intangibles are everything for us. The look, the feel, the activity and energy of the people. One thing I have noticed since D has been accepted here is how much goes on at U of C. The new Logan Center is written up in 2/13 Architectural Digest for it’s amazing architecture and arts, the recent Gun Control forum with Tom Brokaw and Glamour Magazine has a Uchicago woman as one of there Top 10 College Women, 2013, to name a few. (coincidentally, two of her other schools have women in Glamour too.) What I am proud of is that my D has chosen dynamic universities both, in and outside of the classroom, with student bodies that match. </p>
<p>What an exciting time for these kids and a fantastic journey for us! I am grateful. I simply cannot imagine how loyal I will be to the university that makes my D happy next year!</p>
<p>Most eighteen year olds are persuaded by the dumbest things in this process. Being “delighted and flattered” actually goes a long ways with that age group. I know my friends and I agree on this when we talk about our decisions on where to attend many years ago; most of us picked schools for reasons that are dumber than a box of rocks. All of our kids are capable of doing the same. And U of Chicago knows it (hence the “stripe of love”, as they call the scarf they sent). For a family that is close to full pay, it is a $250,000 decision on where to attend. It is astonishing to me that more parents DON’T look beyond the marketing of any school, and just take a blind leap of faith. This is not specific to U of C, of course. And the colleges make it hard to find the down side of each one. And of course every current student and parent out here wants to validate their choice.</p>
<p>All I am saying is that U of C is trying to tip the scales in an eighteen year old’s mind with this mailing. I don’t think we are jaded and unappreciative at all. I mean… should I appreciate a scarf, three t-shirts, two hats, a pen, and a decal in return for a commitment to spend $250,000 at their institution?</p>
<p>Like you student, my kid will attend admitted student days at her top choices. And then we will decide based on both her feeling from those visits and other metrics/facts we have been gathering. But no one will be wearing t-shirts from any the colleges she applied to while we are doing it (she does not weat the t-shirt they sent her, either, by her own choice).</p>
<p>intparent- I am sorry these gifts are causing your family and friends stress. The tshirt thing might be a little blown out of proportion. My D sees it like everything else, part of the game, a lighthearted, fun part even if they will never be worn. Chicago seems to have insulted you in huge proportions! Send that stuff back, it will make you feel better! </p>
<p>Colleges advertise to get you pick them, you pick them and sell yourself back, they pick you and then they try to sell themselves again, and if we are lucky, our kids have great choices and get to make conscientious, balanced final decisions. </p>
<p>Another college offered all expenses paid flashy trip for a few kids and D. D declined. She felt another kid might be more likely to go there and D didn’t want to take one of the few spots offered. That is way more in the offering than a few freebies. I think most of our kids today get it. That trip didn’t sway her, it did me 
</p>
<p>I get the money stress. That is a different conversation. One which needs to happen before the scarf starts flying…</p>
<p>Wherenext & intparent, yes, please go admitted student days with your student (UChicago’s and other choices’). She will find where her heart is and you will help her get there. My D went UChicago’s event last April.
“What an exciting time for these kids and a fantastic journey for us! I am grateful.” -Wherenext, I hear you. I appreciate UChicago’s (and other schools that accepted her) believing in and seeing potential in her. I consider it a privilege to pay for her education (although with stress and sacrifices. Fortunately we are not full-pay after scholarships, substantial-pay may I say).</p>
<p>intparent,
I’m not sure that the MLA data you posted is really fine-grained enough to be useful, and it may be misleading in the case of UChicago. </p>
<p>First, let’s consider non-tenure track full time faculty members. At most universities, such people would be lecturers. UChicago has a group known as Harper-Schmidt fellows who are not tenure track, but have 4-year appointments as Collegiate Assistant Professors and teach in the core. The H-S fellows are up and coming scholars and there is no reason to object to these folks as instructors at all, yet they would be lumped with lecturers in the data. I also have no problem at all with plain old lecturers teaching lower level courses. Lecturers can be hired based solely on their teaching ability, and can be fired (no tenure) if they are not doing a good job. As a result, they are usually very good teachers. It might be a problem if lecturers were doing all the undergrad teaching (which is certainly not true at UChicago), but that is another factor, one can’t deduce from the numbers given. </p>
<p>Now, consider the part-time adjuncts. The stereotype is the exploited adjunct hired instead of regular faculty to teach regular courses in order to save money. However, there is another type of adjunct–people who are successful in their profession and enjoy teaching a course in their area of expertise, which is usually different from the regular faculty. However, the MLA data doesn’t tell them apart. As anecdotal evidence, my (third-years) S has had two courses taught by adjuncts and both fall into the latter category–one was a researcher at the Field Museum who taught one of the bio special topics courses in his area of research. Another was a theater-related course taught by the founder of one of the professional theater companies in Chicago. Neither course was inferior because the instructure was not a tenure track faculty member–quite the opposite–the opportunity to take such courses are one of the selling points of the university and its location in Chicago. </p>
<p>Best wishes to your daughter in this important decision.</p>
<p>I find the insinuation that I, or others who have been accepted, will decide to go to UChicago because we were “flattered or delighted” by the free stuff sort of insulting. UChicago is a fantastic school and yes their marketing scheme involves giving away free stuff to appeal to its prospies, so what? It seems like, and I’m just saying this was my interpretation, you are implying that you have some unique knowledge of this that we don’t possess. We know. We get it. We don’t really care. I’m sure your intentions are pure in both your posting as well as towards your children but you don’t have to act all “affronted” (for lack of a better word) about getting free things to us. We aren’t as impressionable as you think, we were deemed intellectual enough to be accepted in the first place which means we all possess the ability to think critically and see through marketing ploys. You might have been more gullible when you were a kid but I would like to think that the other students on this forum and myself aren’t.</p>
<p>Every single person in the world thinks marketing doesn’t work on them, that it is for suckers. But I would say the expenditure of over $130 billion a year in the US on marketing wouldn’t occur if it wasn’t much more effective than most people realize. Ignoring U of C altogether, I would bet that around 90% of the information a typical student/parent uses to make a college decision comes from marketing materials provided by the college. You visit the college website, go on a tour, pick up brochures, go to the info session, interview with someone from admissions, and read their mailings. Accepted students days are also very much structured by the college to show you what they want you to see. Except maybe the overnight, so take advantage of that. And people feel really well informed after they do those things. But almost every single thing you saw and did there was scripted by the college. </p>
<p>You can get past the scripted side, but I really think very few people do more than a little bit of this work. They just trust in what the college is marketing and how it feels. And sometimes that works out, and sometimes it doesn’t. Just don’t think you are above being affected by marketing, because you probably aren’t.</p>
<p>Wow, intparent. Your first comments were fair enough but the rant is out of control. You love your girl and want the best for her and I like that you just want her to make a decision not colored by propaganda. Hopefully, you can get past this obsession with marketing and college. You are insulting many students on this forum, I only hope you are not belittling your own child’s intelligence. That would surely influence and hurt her more than a scarf and tshirt. I am almost afraid for Uchicago to send anything else. Yikes!</p>
<p>Well, I must admit, I am starting to think that the comments from fans of other colleges saying U of C is moving up in the rankings because of marketing spending might be on to something. And it is interesting that no one out here likes to think it might have affected them, or admit that maybe they didn’t look too far past marketing materials in their college search (again, that is not just a U of C issue).</p>
<p>@intparent
Chicago has historically done well in rankings (only went down in the 90s-2000s) Regardless lets look at the two possibilities:
- Chicago is not moving up on the rankings because of the marketing, which means Chicago deserves it.
- Chicago is moving up on the rankings because of its marketing (not true, if anything it was underrated earlier, regardless) which tells you what rankings are worth…
Marketing colleges is very different from marketing FMCGs. While the latter use marketing to sell products (9/10 dentists recommend etc…) the prior only use it as a medium to inform prospective students about they’re college. Colleges like Caltech and MIT get enough free marketing in popular media. By leveling the playing field, marketing campaigns not only help colleges in broadening their applicant pool, but also help students make informed decisions. </p>
<p>You underestimate other students and parents. College is a huge investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars, of 4 years of time, of future prospects etc, and no one will take that decision lightly.</p>
<p>It sounds like you are falling prey to the exact circumstance you so vehemently oppose. While most people have taken marketing out of the equation (indeed for most it was never in it) you sound as if you are bitter that Chicago is indulging in marketing (the horror).</p>
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<p>That there…That’s dragging marketing back into the equation. </p>
<p>Anecdote:
I got mailers from a few colleges, including Columbia. Chicago was not one of them. I didn’t apply to any college but Chicago. I commited to Chicago before they sent in a single shirt or scarf (I know right! How unusual!)</p>
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Do you know most of the hundreds of thousands of parents of college bound kids? Or at least you have some sort of poll where most/some/any of them picked “just read one mail and saw one shirt and scarf and fished out the 250k”. No? Alright…</p>
<p>
No! Absolutely not (I’m not being sarcastic now) The point of the marketing is NOT to convince you to commit to a college. It was never intended that way! If you go to the University of Chicago, its because you WANT to! Scarf or no scarf!</p>
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And I don’t wear it because I don’t like it! But people who do wear it, wear it because they are proud of the school, the same reason a sports fan would don his team colors! If you aren’t proud of the school (or aren’t sold on it yet) then by all means don’t wear the shirt. Just like some make a statement (of pride) by wearing it, make a statement by not wearing it.</p>
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WHAAT?! Very few people do more than read a college mailer?! That explains why USNews is such a ghost town, why college pr0wl3r is deserted, why Fiske and Princeton Review aren’t able to sell any of their books… Because people just read college mailers! That makes sense.
(end of sarcasm rant)
But seriously! You’re using the arguement that students do not investigate into their colleges enough, and don’t go beyond college mailers, on a COLLEGE MESSAGE BOARD?! The very fact that I, and thousands of others, spend hours on this very site every day, runs counter to your opinion. Your very medium negates it…
And its not like each student just gets mails from only one college. They get similar marketing mails from several colleges! At that point they certainly begin to rigorously research colleges.</p>
<p>Ok, schools want to get our money. Current students and parents want to validate their choice. Prospies want to feel loved. Very few people wise enough to dig out the truth. We get that.
You don’t seem to recognize your preference and goal might not be that of other people’s.
people eat in restaurant while it maybe healthier to cook and eat at home; people go vacation while it may be more relaxing to drive/walk around neighborhood park, swim in YMCA, see cultures and places in TV; people go off colleges for a “useless” degree while it may be more helpful in getting a job to enroll in local community college or online accounting/computer programming classes. Are these people all fools who fall for marketing ploys?</p>