Paris deaths

“The result of years of immigration from societies where violence is common - the same infrastructure gets built in our backyards too. Compare how Brussels used to be versus now, and decide if this is how we want our cities to end up as.”

The problem with this statement is it assumes a lot of things that appeal to a certain mindset, but when you scrutinize them fall apart:

1)Um, for one thing, take a look at ‘our’ society, whether you mean the US or western society. We have serious violence in this society, rates of domestic abuse, violent crimes, assault, murder, shootings, stabbing, rape, we have people getting killed or left brain dead after beatings at a sports game. We have sports like MMA and Boxing, or football, that are not exactly based in passiveness. We have a popular culture that in some ways glorifies violence, you have the ‘violence porn’ movies like Hostel and Saw, or tv shows that are full of violence and so forth like Sons of Anarchy was. Does that mean everyone in our society is a bloodthirsty monster waiting to kill, main and mutilate others?

2)More importantly, talk to people who have come from these ‘violent societies’, and you want to know what they want? They don’t want to bring the violence here, they aren’t programmed monsters who take violence casually, because they have experienced it up close and personal. We have been taking in people from places like Syria (there is a large population in the Detroit area),people from war ravaged parts of Africa, Palestinians, and want to know a little bit of truth? These people came here to get away from that, and whether Muslims or Christians, Syrians or Africans, they want a better life, they don’t want to recreate the crap that goes on 'over there". People who are Iranian in descent don’t want the battles over Shia versus Sunni, mideast Christians simply want to live safely.

The biggest problem with this is it assumes evil intent of immigrants and refugees, and also quite honestly does nothing valuable in my opinion. Are there security concerns and others with having large amounts of refugees and immigrants? Of course, issues of housing and how to get them settled and turning into productive citizens or simply guests, are all very real as is issues like ISIS smuggling people in via being refugees, it is not simple.

And while I don’t love the standard line from some quarters that the blame for Paris and Belgium is the way Muslims have been treated and how we in effect shouldn’t blame those responsible, there is some truth to that, too. Put it this way, there are large Muslim populations in the US in some areas , and you don’t see the kind of problems you see in Europe, near where I live there is a large Muslim population in Paterson and Clifton, and while these are not great areas, and there are problems with crime and such,there haven’t been the kind of issues you see in Europe, because the people in these communities don’t feel the isolation from what I can tell.

Someone recently pointed out the WTC bombing in 93, but the perpetrators there were not isolated, the chief organizer worked for Honeywell as an engineer I believe and the others were not the typical description of being frustrated over lack of jobs, etc…which points out you can’t generalize either way.

It isn’t that I think we necessarily have to throw open the doors and just say “come on in”, but I also think the gross bigotry of claims like somehow ‘those people are inured to violence’ or 'those people are all like that" are not only exaggerations of the worst sort, they also feed into the very things that end up causing things like happen in Europe.

I understand people are scared, I understand that people are upset and angry about what is happening, and believe me, I have my moments. The problem is I also see the faces of women, men and children fleeing horror, and I can’t sit back and blame them for their misery or think they want anything but a bit of peace and hope. I don’t like to use references to the Holocaust, but I challenge people to go back and read about what happened when Jewish refugees fleeing the horror of the Third Reich before the war tried to get access, take a look at footage from the time, the people on the St Louis were turned away and the looks on their faces, and also read about what people in the US were saying about taking in Jewish refugees, the vitriol, the claims of all those Jewish refugees “causing problems”, the language is not all that much different…and much of the same suspects as the politicians you see grandstanding today were saying similar things back then about the Jewish refugees from Europe, and we know the outcome of that one.

It looks like a third refugee was linked to the Paris attacks.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/23/world/paris-attacks/

What do you mean "a third “? So far, I’ve checked FranceTVInfos, not one of the terrorists or their helpers was a refugee. They’re all criminals involved in drug dealing and other crimes, who were on the French " watch list” and found an outlet in joining the death cult Daesh in Syria/Iraq. They’re not Syrian, they’re not Iraqi, they’re not Erythrean, they’re not Afghans (the 4 most common refugee nationalities), they’re French and Belgian.
The 2 people mentioned in the CNN articles may have had Syrian passports/papers, but those were fake (at least one of those was traced back to someone still in Greece), and they’ve been identified as probably Belgian. The third one is unknown due to having blown himself to smithereens and not being in any database. There’s ZERO proof that refugees had anything to do with it. It’s possible some terrorists followed the “refugee route” (on foot and in trains) since they couldn’t take planes due to being on the watchlist but that’s quite different from being a refugee. Another hypothesis is that the passport was deliberately “planted” to establish a false “lead”.

@ MYOS1634 What you say is correct. However, it won’t matter (sadly). Some will ignore facts no matter what. People have set their eyes on the new “enemy”. If there is one thing I learned it’s that although love is powerful, hate unfortunately speaks louder. People need something to hate. Whether it’s people of color, women, other religions or ideologies, or anything that they precieve as ‘different’ or ‘inferior’. The targets may change, but the objective is the same : hate and hate with a passion. History has taught us as much. Take the U.S. for example : no period of time has passed without a major part of the population hating another part of the population. This is sadly true for many countries. Humanity thrives on hate. Today it’s Islam and Muslim, tomorrow who knows? Best thing is to go along with those who don’t waste energy hating. They make the world a lot more bearable.

@fractalmstr, the source you cite doesn’t even say this vest is from a new person, much less a refugee. Your source indicates the police think the suicide vest was dumped by the surviving terrorist everyone already knows about.

Don’t let fear get in the way of facts.

It looks like CNN removed the mention of “third refugee linked to Paris attack” in the linked article.

You done?.. Despite what you clearly think, I actually do support helping these refugees. I just want it done responsibly. That’s really all there is to it.

To foil the would-be attackers, hilarious way Belgians are responding to the terrorism threat crisis:
Tweeting cat photos
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/22/national-emergency-belgians-respond-with-cats

I see some of @saintfan’s various avatars there!

I have a good college buddy who is married to a frenchman and has lived and worked in France for the past 30 years.She’s been posting a lot of facebook photos of parties her social group has had centered around eating multi-course all pork meals, lots of alcohol, and lots of dancing as an FU to the Islamic extremists. Not PC, but hey, if it helps with the stress…

State Department put out a worldwide travel alert for Americans… fyi

^ that is reasonable. Brussels hasn’t been on high terror alert for no reason.
Loved the cats.
On the other hand, I know some in Europe have questioned this act of censorship - no one could tweet what they were seeing. Most agreed that giving away street names or locations would be wrong, but many said it was a bit extreme, especially considering it applied to journalists too.
Not sure yet how I feel about that. But just as I love the cats, I don’t want “state of emergency” to be an excuse for “whatever we want to do”. Last week, the French parliament came close to voting re-establishing official state censorship of newspapers, for instance! Fortunately some representatives figured out you can’t throw the baby with the bathwater and stopped the initiative, but… scary thought.

@doschicos, one of the best commentaries on the attack is hardly PC. But it’s on point, very funny, and a big hit in France:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glxh9ZgP7kc

The croquembouche! The french freedom tower. haha. love it.

“You done?.. Despite what you clearly think, I actually do support helping these refugees. I just want it done responsibly. That’s really all there is to it.” My post was general. I was not talking about you; I was referring in part to some of the idiocy I see on my fb page and elsewhere. I in no way meant you specifically.

“Plus, dogs don’t ogle naked images on the full-body scanner or go on strike for fatter pensions.”

Give them too much exposure to your prosciutto, and they might very well go on strike. In the spirit of patriotism, why aren’t you finishing your prosciutto? Do you hate America or something, GMT? :wink:

Here’s your terrorist event:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting.html

Yup. It struck me how different my reaction was to “shooting in Paris” than to “Shooting in Colorado/SouthCarolina/Connecticut” - if the shootings had happened in a US city and not Paris, my go-to reaction would have been “Another white guy”. Because let’s face it, in the past few years, MOST terrorists in the US have been mentally unstable white guys who get angry and pick up their automatic weapon. This one had a trenchcoat, which I associate with Columbine. Of course this could be an old African American guy who got angry, or a Latina, or… just, not as likely statistically speaking. Speakers/representatives are saying we shouldn’t speculate about motive yet, could be the place was hit at random (ie., we shouldn’t assume it’s because it’s a Planned Parenthood).
In Paris, go-to would be Isis now that GIA is no longer operational, but there were two other possibilities due to the COP21.

In other news, today was the Day of National Hommage to the victims. French people were invited to put flags on their windows - something they NEVER DO. In a big courtyard, a multicultural trio of young singers sang “Quand on n’a que l’amour” by Jacques Brel (which goes “when we only have love, and just a song to stand up to military drums”) and during ten minutes the names of the dead were read in complete silence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtMbwXCJPOk
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/27/paris-attacks-victims-families-attend-solemn-memorial-ceremony-two-weeks-on
Note that some families refused to come to the memorial dedicated to their child/brother/sister, I’m not sure why.

This week, after our return from a months stay Paris,the question has consistently been:" weren’t you afraid?" With over 11,000 gun deaths in the US my response has consistently been: “not as afraid as I am here in the US”.

The event is Paris was a terrorist attack

So were the following events :
Boston Marathon bombing, Ottowa Parliament shooting, Ft Hood attack , Colorado movie theatre , Charlie Hebdo attack , the attack in Copenhagen , the church attack in South Carolina , the recruitment center in Chattanooga , Columbine , Sandy Hook , several college and university attacks with guns and knives , PP …the list goes on and on. We can call them mass shootings , workplace violence , etc.
Semantics or politicizing doesn’t really change the facts that we have a violence issue that is growing , not only in our own country but in the world.
I do find it interesting how thread topics are titles here as terror attacks or something less offensive or descriptive when dealing with the labeling of the people or person who committed the act of violence