<p>I have this image of Justice Blackmon and the other men who were on the Supreme Court and briefing staff sitting around in 1972-73 saying: “hey, guys, lets make abortion a constitutional right so boys can force the girl to have an abortion and get off cheap!” NOT!</p>
<p>You might want to read about Norma McCorvey (Roe) and her account of how she ended up suing. There is every indication that she didn’t feel like or at least was not interested in getting married due to her sexual persuasion. She hired two women as her attorenys and claims that they worked with her to have her lie and say it was a product of a gang rape to forward their [the female attorneys’] agenda to get abortion legalized.</p>
<p>So much for any historical (rather than fanciful) support for the “male oppression” view of pro-abortion! I guess some women just cannot stand the idea that any woman could chose not to marry and, if pregnant, chose not to carry to term. Advocating “no choice” reminds me of “hazing,” where people argue that since it happened to them and they “took it,” its OK to force it on the next group.</p>
<p>I understand why you think that, but it’s a reflection of poor quoting on my part rather than seconding that particular sentiment. I don’t find it interesting that the most vocal supporters are men, what I was saying was that the fact that many men will want to avoid child support gives them an agenda opposed to the wellbeing of the pregnant girl and is why parental notification is important. I apologize for the poor quoting.</p>
<p>I’m a mother, and due to the slippery slope, I would be against criminalizing abortion at any time. In fact, I am a regular donor to Planned Parenthood.</p>
To people accustomed to thinking in binary terms, you’re right. I tend to think in spectrums, with a fertilized ova being the barest potential of a human being (many of which are lost through natural causes along the way) to the fetus of a woman in labor whose potential is 99.98 percent realized.</p>
<p>Where do you draw the line? That’s one reason for argument. It’s not clear cut, “objective,” or anything else that would be handy.</p>
<p>LD, the anti-contraception folks are a heavy proportion of the organized anti-Choice movement. Abortion is just one theater of operation for the movement. Note also the movement to give pharmacists the right not to honor prescriptions for birth control if it contravenes their personal beliefs, an astounding assertion that wouldn’t be tolerated for any other prescription on any grounds. </p>
<p>Moreover, you’ll note that very few anti-Choice voices will agree to promote contraception and fact-based sexual knowledge, preferring ignorance and its consequences…a pretty good marker for where they stand morally as far as I’m concerned.</p>
<p>You may regard a fetus as a human being as you wish. The possession of human DNA per se is not the determining factor for me. A simple thought experiment makes it clear for me: a fire has broken out at a laboratory that provides day care for its employees. I can save either 50 fertilized ova in Petri dishes or I can save three-year-olds. </p>
<p>For me, it’s not even debatable. And I’m sure that there are some interesting contortions that some anti-Choicers would go through to justify saving the already-born children. I dunno, maybe because the fertilized ova were conceived in Sin. Feh.</p>
<p>Sorry to disappoint you, SJM, but you can consider me as a proxy for TheMom, who is not on this board but is as adamantly pro-Choice as I am. Fwiw, as an individual, while she is fortunate that she was never in the position, I don’t think she would ever have an abortion herself absent rape or incest.</p>
<p>ZM, no it’s not no big deal if politicians were to make premarital sex illegal. That’s implementation of a full-blown theocracy directly against the ideals of the American Constitution. I suppose they would cry “God is great!” as they stoned the transgressors.</p>
<p>And I vehemently disagree with the premise that 15-year-old has no right to make medical decisions. At the age where they go in to see the doctor by themselves, they’re competent.</p>
<p>I agree that most mothers, having had a first-hand experience of the miracle of childbirth, are not inclined to promote abortion. I can also see how as a group, mothers are more likely to be sympathetic to women who are facing an unwanted pregnancy. </p>
<p>I can see how men are more likely to have the most extreme views on either end of the spectrum. It is easier to be sure about something if it doesn’t have a personal consequence.</p>
<p>“ZM, no it’s not no big deal if politicians were to make premarital sex illegal. That’s implementation of a full-blown theocracy directly against the ideals of the American Constitution. I suppose they would cry “God is great!” as they stoned the transgressors.”</p>
<p>Where did I say that? </p>
<p>“And I vehemently disagree with the premise that 15-year-old has no right to make medical decisions. At the age where they go in to see the doctor by themselves, they’re competent”</p>
<p>I just as vehemently disagree with you. We’re not going to change each other’s mind, which I do think is ok. I don’t need you to agree with me and I’m sure you feel the same way.</p>
<p>You just throw out these gross generalizations, without any supporting documentation.</p>
<p>Well, at least on this thread (and among the pro-life people I know IRL), the pro-life/anti-abortion folks are strongly in favor of both BC and sex ed.</p>
<p>And I have yet to read on CC, or hear IRL, any pro-life/anti-abortion supporter who cared much about how the fetus was conceived. I have never heard anyone – at least since I was a pre-teen – talking about babies conceived “in sin.” It’s just not part of my vocabulary, or that of anyone else I know.</p>
<p>In fact, as a strong pro-life supporter, I have evolved to the degree that it is insignificant to me how the life was begun – I don’t support abortion even in cases of rape or incest. I used to think that first trimester abortion was tolerable, although not great. But as my thinking evolved, I grew to see that point of view as a “cop-out” – a hypocritical position.</p>
<p>For me, a fetus is either alive or not, and human or not. Something remarkable happens at the moment of conception. The only difference between a zygote and a full-term human baby is 9 months. Whether or not that fetus has value should not depend on a subjective judgement about how much a baby is desired.</p>
<p>
So, at an age where they can’t even get a driver’s license, they should be allowed to abort a fetus? How are they supposed to get to and home from the abortion clinic? The bus?</p>
<p>It’s not "no choice’ - it’s choice BEFORE the fact (pregnancy) or choice AFTER the fact.</p>
<p>How many other things in life does one get a “do over”?? Most of the time we have to live with our mistakes. But in the case of unwanted pregnancy, there is still the option of adoption. </p>
<p>People killing their own unborn babies in such great numbers - as legalized abortion has allowed (and government saying it’s okay) has taken us somewhere as a society that seems like the wrong path. Is that what “we the people” stand for?</p>
Goodness, when the majority of the GOP candidates for the Presidency have been married several times, and when only about half of all babies are born to married couples, what does this have to do with anything?</p>
<p>Premarital sex has been around since ---- forever!!! Duh. No attempts at making it illegal have EVER suceeded, as far as I know. And I haven’t heard anyone but you talk about making premarital sex illegal.</p>
<h1>222 “That’s ridiculous! Do you think females are so weak that they cannot handle having a baby? Good heavens, females, even as young as 12-13, have been having babies for milennia!”</h1>
<p>You chose to misinterpret what I said.
Yes, women have been baby-making-machines for milennia. Often willingly and joyfully, but sometimes not, and plenty of them have died in the process. The truth is, lealdragon, that plenty of females are ill-equipped mentally or physically to carry and deliver a child. I am the mother of two very-much-wanted daughters. I had every advantage–I was mature (in my 30s) when I had them, blessed with a good income, good health, a loving husband, a comfortable home, a supportive family, and terrific medical care. Unlike many others, I did not have to deal with fear, financial desperation, drug addiction, rape, incest, extreme youth, physical frailty, mental illness, zero support system, etc. Still, speaking only for me, each pregnancy represented nine of the toughest months of my life.</p>
<p>I don’t understand how you can so simplify such a complex situation. Do I think that abortion is a sad and tragic process? Yes. Do I believe it destroys living tissue? Yes. Do I think that women have the procedure done frivolously, just for the fun of it? No. Do I think that a girl or woman’s mental/physical well-being and future deserves less consideration than that of the fetal tissue within her? No. Do I think that because people like you disagree with a woman’s right to choose, that you should be able to make the choice for her? No.</p>
Hindoo, this is part of what I don’t understand. Do you think that living with the emotional aftermath of an abortion is easier than adoption or keeping a baby? One of the fallacies of abortion, imo, is that it “gets rid” of the problem. I just think it creates other problems, which are not always clearly understood ahead of time.</p>
<p>Absolutely not. I just happen to think that the situation differs from person to person. While some individuals should not end a pregnancy under any circumstances because of the reasons you stated above, the fact is that not every girl/woman will be emotionally scarred for the rest of her life if she does have the procedure. What about those who are emotionally devastated by being forced to carry to term an unintended pregnancy?</p>
<p>OR, anyone other than the female involved. That is Hindoo’s point. Why isn’t the female that is most directly effected the ONLY one that gets to make the decision for her since she is the one that has to live with the consequences of abortion, birth, adoption, etc.</p>
<p>Exactly. In many cases, easy access to abortion makes it easy for the guy to shirk responsibility, or even oppress the woman by forcing or coercing her into having an abortion.</p>
<p>I have a friend whose husband threatened to leave her and their 2-yo child if she didn’t have an abortion. (She did, but left him afterwards due to his callousnes.) I have another friend whose husband shrugged and said ‘Get rid of it’ when she told him she was pregnant. (She did.)</p>
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</p>
<p>These are anecdotal, of course, but interesting nonetheless:</p>
<p>Friend #1 above divorced her husband because he forced her to have the abortion. She told me later “I saw pieces of my baby on the table. NO woman should EVER have to go thru that!” She became hardened towards what happened but accepted it as part of life. She is now a pro-choice activist, but is strongly against late-term abortions.</p>
<p>Another friend. one who had 2 abortions in her early 20s because she was “too busy partying” (her words) to have a baby, is now 58, bedridden with a serious illness and living in a nursing home. She is currently experiencing extreme remorse over her abortions. She told me “I regret my abortions. I am now all alone. I could have 2 kids in their 30s right now who care about me, maybe even grandkids! But instead I have no one.”</p>
<p>Yet another friend, M, got pregnant as a teen but gave her baby up for adoption. Back in those days, it was done anonymously. A few years ago, when she was in her mid-50s, her daughter contacted her. She was ECSTATIC! They now have a relationship. Not only did she offer joy to an infertile couple, but this joy came back to her later in life, when she was ready to have a relationship with the child she gave up for adoption.</p>
<p>Nowadays, with open adoption, the mother can elect to stay in touch with the adoptive family, and with the child, if she so chooses. She can have the best of both worlds - no responsibility, yet news of her child’s wellbeing and even, in some cases, contact with the child.</p>
<p>Which of these stories have the happier ending?</p>
<p>Ah, and of course there is my friend V. She got pregnant at 16, and planned to give the baby up for adoption. But, after the baby was born, she begged the nurses to let her hold the baby “just once.” She told me that at that moment, she was so overcome with love for the baby that she decided to keep her. At the time I met her, her daughter was a teenager. She told me that, even though she was a single mother, she never regretted her decision, and having that daughter brought her much joy and meaning to her life.</p>
<p>Anecdotal, yes, but something to think about.</p>
<p>Vicariousparent, why don’t you re-read my many, many posts on this subject. The problem with choice is that the unborn human doesn’t get one. And, in some cases, neither does the other parent.</p>
<p>Lealdragon, I just thought I’d share that a family member has an adopted child, through an open adoption. The birth mom was a college student, unprepared to take on the responsibility of raising a child. The adoptive parents were unable to conceive, and are both absolutely devoted to their child. The birth mother stays with them on occasion, although the contact has grown less over time. But the child will always know that s/he was loved and wanted by at least three adults and their extended families.</p>
<p>Are you implying that with legal abortion, the woman is able to make the decision all on her own?</p>
<p>Not so. Read the examples in my above post. Teenage girls, and even married women in their 20s, are OFTEN coerced into having an abortion they do not want - by their boyfriends, husbands, parents, jobs, etc.</p>
<p>I’ve had several of my friends tell me they were emotionally devastated by their abortions, but I have NEVER known anyone who was emotionally devastated by having a baby.</p>
<p>Do you?</p>
<p>On the contrary, they may have been freaked out at first, usually afraid of what the parents would think or how they would manage financially, but after they got over the initial shock, they were usually stronger and happier for it.</p>
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</p>
<p>How wonderful!</p>
<p>Adoption stories are always much happier than abortion stories.</p>