Pat Endorses Who?

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No, but dealing with the consequences of having sex and getting pregnant requires judgement, experience, and knowledge – none of which are likely traits of the typical teenager. Breast implants, tubal ligations and cosmetic surgery are no more dangerous or life-changing than an abortion. As zoosermom continually points out, abortion is a major decision, best handled with the guidance and input of those who have a girl’s best interests at heart.</p>

<p>And no one has yet answered my question – how is the hypothetical girl supposed to travel to and from the abortion clinic? Does she take the bus? How does she deal with side effects of the procedure without her parents’ knowledge and awareness? As many of you may be aware, there have been several cases of young women dying from the use of RU 486. </p>

<p>[RU-486</a> Deaths](<a href=“http://www.lifeissues.org/ru486/deaths.htm]RU-486”>http://www.lifeissues.org/ru486/deaths.htm)</p>

<p>In at least one case, the girl’s parents did not know she had used RU 486 to induce an abortion – if they had known, perhaps they could have taken steps to help her seek earlier treatment. </p>

<p>[Holly</a> Patterson: Dead from Safe & Legal Abortion](<a href=“http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/patterson.htm]Holly”>http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/patterson.htm)</p>

<p>So, given the risks – both emotional and physical – of abortion, I think it makes more sense to give 15 year old girls a driver’s license. At least their parents know when they are operating a vehicle.</p>

<p>An open letter from Holly Patterson’s parents </p>

<p>[An</a> Open Letter From the Parents of Holly Patterson - Death by RU-486](<a href=“http://www.godandscience.org/abortion/patterson.html]An”>http://www.godandscience.org/abortion/patterson.html)</p>

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<p>[John</a> McCain: Courageous Service - Experienced Leadership - Bold Solutions](<a href=“http://www.johnmccain.com/bvid/]John”>http://www.johnmccain.com/bvid/)</p>

<p>Wow, I just watched this video (linked by zoosermom), and it is incredible. The video is well done, but what’s more important is what it tells you about John McCain. If you look up courage, integrity and heroism, I think you’ll see a picture of McCain. I was especially touched by his story of the North Vietnamese guard who showed him mercy at the Hanoi Hilton. I’m still not sure he’ll win the nomination, but I think our country will really miss out on one of the great men of our time.</p>

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<p>Please elaborate.</p>

<p>John McCain is a warmonger like the rest of 'em.</p>

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[quote]
YouTube - Laptop Brigade: Why Ron Paul is Pro-Life<a href=“post%20#360”>/quote</a></p>

<p>Thanks for posting that, Vyse. Excellent! The right approach to a very complex issue, imo. There are no easy answers, but imo Ron Paul offers a workable solution. Not perfect for the extremists on both sides, but workable.</p>

<p>Here is the major flaw in the logic of the position “young girls should not need parental approval for abortions”:</p>

<p>If they don’t get parental approval, the pregnancy will (in all but a very few extreme cases) become obvious. So SOMEONE will notice that this girl is pregnant and hopefully get her some medical help.</p>

<p>Abortions, otoh, can be done secretively. The girl could have a complication and die and the parents not even know until it’s too late.</p>

<p>Like in the examples posted by sjmom. There are many others as well.</p>

<p>lealdragon, why do you call McCain a warmonger? Other than Kucinich, is there any candidate who doesn’t support defending the U.S. militarily? (Maybe even Kucinich has conditions under which he’d accept a military response, but I’m not sure.)</p>

<p>The issue of when to go to war is complex. Under what conditions do you think the U.S. should take that step? When people make blanket statements like, “War is bad,” “Get the troops out now” I wonder if they’ve considered all the consequences. </p>

<p>Do you only take issue with the war in Iraq (which is experiencing some real, significant success which has NOT been reported in the MSM)? How do you feel about the Vietnam or Korean Wars? Or WWII?</p>

<p>Since we agree so much on the issue of abortion, I just would like to understand your views on this issue wrt political candidates.</p>

<p>By the way, I think it’s a mistake to try to tie multiple positions together for the sake of debate. It usually ends up being a mudbath. So, for example, I don’t see abortion as directly related to Iraq, Social Security, or tax policies.</p>

<p>Violence is acceptable only as a last resort.</p>

<p>This video explains my views better than I can explain in a few words:</p>

<p>[YouTube</a> - Texas Republican slams Bush "demented philosophy of conquest](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZmPS0XmeBw]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZmPS0XmeBw)</p>

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<p>This thread is not an abortion thread - it’s a thread about Pat Robertson’s endorsement. Already the thread has taken several turns into other topics. 2 pages back it was all about McCain. All I did was post a single comment about McCain, not for the purpose of debate but simply in response to other posts about his so-called ‘integrity.’ I do not consider someone in favor of preemptive strike to have integrity.</p>

<p>sjmom, I against all violence except in self-defense. I am against violence to people (including unborn babies), animals (I am a vegetarian), and to the planet (I am an environmentalist). </p>

<p>Here is an excerpt from one of my son’s high school essays, that I think explains the position very well:</p>

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<p>(above excerpt used by permission)</p>

<p>lealdragon, I’m sorry that I didn’t make it clear what I meant to say in post#368. I think there was one post early in the thread, and a few others throughout, which seem to try to push the pro-life stance into the pro war, anti sex ed, anti birth control corner. I just meant that each topic can be discussed independently of the others, and is easier to sort out if that happens.</p>

<p>You are right – this is a thread about Pat Robertson endorsing Giuliani. I think some people were surprised by the endorsement, but if you read more about what Robertson says, it’s not so strange. I’m not a huge fan of Robertson, but I agree that the threat of Islamic fundamentalism is the most important issue of our day.</p>

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<p>Yeah, there are those…I do not understand them at all. Pro-war is against the teachings of the great master Jesus, and anti-bc/sex ed is completely illogical if you want to decrease abortion.</p>

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Yeah, it would be convenient for the would-be ayahtollahs to keep the discussions broken down and separate. It’s no accident that a large number of the same people are anti-Choice AND anti-sex ed AND anti-birth control AND anti-gay rights. It’s all as much a part of imposing a wide-ranging fabric of narrow religious-based sectarian beliefs as public policy as the Virtue Police in Saudi Arabia, the Shiite enforcement squads in Iraq, or the mullahs of the Taliban in Afghanistan…the irony is profound and would be delicious if it weren’t so sad. The views are all interconnected…you see the same would-be ayahtollahs, the same organizations, the same politicians seeking and receiving support.</p>

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No matter what policy is adopted, there will be tragedies. People can die from reactions to vaccinations but we don’t stop them. Appeals to policy like this are emotionally manipulative and don’t carry any weight with me. Actually, as a tactic, I think it’s morally bankrupt.</p>

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Oh, yes, the MSN should spread the Good News: of Shiite on Shiite violence in the South, of continuing Shiite on Sunni and vice-versa violence in Baghdad mitigated only by the fact that many neighborhoods have now been ethnically cleansed, and the north around Kirkuk where it’s Kurds vs. Arabs and Turkmen. By arming some of the Sunnis–many of whom had been fighting the US and damned well may again, and against the protest, reluctance, and obstacles put in the way by the Shiite-dominated Maliki government–we’ve managed to suppress much of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, which a) wasn’t present in any meaningful way until the US invasion and b) as most of the critics have long pointed out, was the smallest of the multiple factions duking it out in a slow-speed multi-sided civil war. Of course, the large numbers of armed Sunnis bode ill for the main Sunni-Shiite conflict once the US forces draw down, but that’s not our problem now. And this doesn’t even address the illegalities of groups like Blackwater, the rampant corruption of both US corporations and Iraqis, including money funneled to various militias, and a crook like Ahmed Chalabi now being the latest in charge of Iraqi reconstruction efforts.</p>

<p>Nor does it address the failure of the True Believers to provide a picture of Iraq in terms of who controls it and under what conditions so that “victory,” or even “progress,” can be evaluated.</p>

<p>Not that the latter should be particularly surprising, because most of the True Believers can’t do anything but parrot Fox News or administration (same thing) talking points and if you ask them specific questions about conditions on the ground you get either a deer-in-the-headlight look, a my brother who’s over there says it’s going really well anecdote, I trust President Bush and Gen. Petraeus, or my spouse told me so and I trust him…all betraying a level of knowledge equal to jack.</p>

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<p>Speaking of parroting talking points, if this post had a name it would be “Polly”.</p>

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<p>Actually, some parents don’t get their kids vaccinated for this very reason. Shouldn’t they have the same right to protect their 12-yo daughter from a potentially dangerous medical/surgical procedure?</p>

<p>Hey, thedad, it’s cold today in Boston.</p>

<p>(((I’m holding my breath, waiting for you to tell me it’s hot)))</p>

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Not me, as I’ve said over and over again. In fact, I will challenge you to find any post of mine where I’ve been anti-sex (other than for children) anti birth control (other than for children) or anti-gay rights. You won’t find one. </p>

<p>I’m beginning to feel like I did when my kids were toddlers, when they insisted that I was a mean mommy because I made them clean up their rooms.</p>

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<p>The only person who insists on imposing a particular narrow belief system on everyone else here, is you. If anyone disagrees with you, you immediately accuse them (usually me) of holding every single viewpoint with which you disagree. Ever hear of the halo effect?</p>

<p>The halo effect refers to a cognitive bias whereby the perception of a particular trait is influenced by the perception of the former traits in a sequence of interpretations.</p>

<p>You continue to make generalized observations about the conflation of beliefs that have no objective support.</p>

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Well, you’re right here. I do trust people that have actually BEEN to Iraq, know something about national defense and/or work for the federal government. Those do seem like better qualifications than two quarters of middle eastern studies 30 years ago.</p>

<p>I’m curious as to how many of those supporting no-parental consent actually have teenage daughters.</p>

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<p>Then you might find it interesting that Ron Paul has received more financial support from military families than any other candidate. hmmmm…telling!</p>

<p>[Ron</a> Paul Leads Military Donations Race » Outside The Beltway | OTB](<a href=“http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/ron_paul_leads_military_donations_race/]Ron”>Ron Paul Leads Military Donations Race – Outside the Beltway)</p>

<p>[RealClearPolitics</a> - Articles - When Good News is No News](<a href=“http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/11/when_good_news_is_no_news.html]RealClearPolitics”>RealClearPolitics - Articles - When Good News is No News)

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