<p>07DAD, I’m sorry my above message was so unclear. That was a Pat Robertson quote. I thought that I put his name there, but I did not. I do not endorse Pat Robertson or any of his beliefs.</p>
<p>Just a peripheral question. … Why is a fetus more cherished and revered than a baby once it’s been born? What are the current numbers of American children living in poverty … or lacking basic health care or educational opportunities… or living in squalor, in dangerous, dysfunctional households and neighborhoods … or born crack-addicted? Etc. There’s such a sound and fury over the protection of fetal tissue, but where’s the outrage over the kids who survived the womb and now suffer the consequences?</p>
<p>lealdragon, thanks for your response to that absurd question.</p>
<p>It wasn’t absurd at all. What do you think should be done about all those children in orphanages? I don’t understand why someone would be so concerned about a fetus, and neglect it once it becomes an actual child.</p>
<p>unregistered and Hindoo:</p>
<p>I’ll answer your questions.</p>
<p>"*Why is a fetus more cherished and revered than a baby once it’s been born? …There’s such a sound and fury over the protection of fetal tissue, but where’s the outrage over the kids who survived the womb and now suffer the consequences?</p>
<p>What do you think should be done about all those children in orphanages? I don’t understand why someone would be so concerned about a fetus, and neglect it once it becomes an actual child*."</p>
<p>Religious absolutists KNOW what is “right” for you, for everyone and for themselves. Therefore, if abortion is “wrong,” condem it, don’t do it and feel morally superior to anyone who disagrees, or God Forbid, actual has one. Don’t “cherish” or “rever” anyone (fetus or baby) since that is idolatry (a sin) or anything since that is coveting (also a sin). Moral rectitude is the only thing that has value.</p>
<p>Compassion for the unwanted babies who are born where abortion is denied? Well, for a absolutist helping at a societal level using tax dollars might be supporting children born to women out of wedlock. We can’t have that because fornication is a sin and we can’t coddle sinners. Besides, that’s pure wealth re-distribution and, anyway, if the child gets the right relationship with god, he or she will be OK.</p>
<p>Helping at a personal level? Well, absolutists are more comfortable with other absolutists so long as they agree on what’s “right.” Besides, it would take away from making sure that everyone else is aware of the “right” way to live.</p>
<p>Care and get their hands dirty? Don’t be absurd!</p>
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<p>I have several Christian friends who told me that they voted strictly on the abortion issue. They said “I could never vote for a pro-choice candidate. I never even considered any of the other issues.”</p>
<p>I disagree emphatically with this stance. Although I believe abortion is wrong and I’m glad the candidate I’ve chosen is pro-life, I have never made my decision based solely on that issue, primarily because it’s a contradiction to be anti-abortion yet be pro-war. I have never understood how someone can say they are pro-life but think preemptive strike is ok.</p>
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<p>Not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that prolifers are willing to accept the impact of all those babies (and their offspring) adding to the population?</p>
<p>Re: your statistics. Why do people always cite the teen pregnancies when discussing abortion rates? I don’t remember the exact numbers, but last time I checked, the vast majority of abortions were done by women in their 20s and 30s, if I remember correctly. Also, I’ve read that a large percentage of teen pregnancies among poor girls are planned “If I have a baby I’ll have someone to love me” and are not the result of ignorance.</p>
<p>So it’s a very complex problem.</p>
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<p>Well I guess the end of the holocaust affected everyone else, too. As do reduced crime rates. Oh, and let’s not forget about reduced teen suicide, reduced car accidents, etc.</p>
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<p>Oh, so you noticed that too? Gag.</p>
<p>07Dad, I agree with you about absolutists. Recently I spoke with a man running a prolife booth at a fair. He had absolutely NO compassion for pregnant unmarried women. His cold, callous, flippant answer was ‘they shouldn’t be having sex.’ Then, a friend told me that her boss, a vocal abortion opponent, decreased her pay when she found out she was pregnant. (she wasn’t working full-time so had no rights) Despicable!</p>
<p>I agree that if someone calls themselves prolife, that should mean more than just being anti-abortion. One of my biggest pet peeves is when anti-abortion people are in favor of war and care nothing about the innocent Iraqi children. Or, worse, they say things like ‘well they’re going to hell anyway since they’re not Christian.’ No kidding, someone actually told me that!</p>
<p>However, there are many prolife people who really are, genuinely, prolife. I met a couple recently who’ve taken in several foster children. These people are walking their talk.</p>
<p>It’s extremely rude & tacky to ask a prolife person how many children they’ve adopted. You have no idea what that person has done to help people. Jesus said not to judge. I agree that someone who claims to be prolife and cares nothing for children after they’re born is a hypocrite. It is true that some ‘prolifers’ are into it as a political cause and have zero love & compassion. But, when you meet someone, you have no way of knowing where that person’s heart is. So you shouldn’t ASSume that they aren’t doing something in their own way to make the world a better place. </p>
<p>I believe abortion is wrong because it’s killing a person. If we don’t champion those unborn little persons, then it’s the same as not championing those oppressed by slavery or the holocaust or any other genocide.</p>
<p>That doesn’t mean that each person who recognizes abortion as wrong must go adopt a child. That’s like saying each person who recognizes heroin addiction is wrong must take a junkie into their home and rehabilitate them.</p>
<p>The reason the abortion issue will never be resolved is because it’s a debate between the ‘right’ of the woman vs the right of the child. I contend that an unborn baby has its own DNA, its own heart, etc. therefore is a separate and distinct entity who happens to reside inside a woman’s body. This makes for a very complex issue; one that will never be resolved until science can prove exactly when the soul (assuming there IS a soul) enters the body. Not likely.</p>
<p>Since It will never get resolved, I think the best thing to do is to work TOGETHER to find common ground to REDUCE abortions.</p>
<p>“Why is a fetus more cherished and revered than a baby once it’s been born? …There’s such a sound and fury over the protection of fetal tissue, but where’s the outrage over the kids who survived the womb and now suffer the consequences?”</p>
<p>07DAD–You hit the nail on the head!
As for abortion, I doubt there’s a person among us who thinks it’s a “good” thing, but rather a heartbreaking alternative to bringing an unwanted child into the world. Yes, I know there are plenty of middle-class Americans waiting in line for that perfect white infant. Or, perhaps, just the perfect infant. But what about the not-so-perfect babies? Those with mental or physical challenges? Those born hooked on drugs, or to 15-year-old moms who–in their infinite wisdom–decide to raise them themselves? Those little ones born in dire poverty, without basic necessities, without someone to depend on, unloved, with a meager education, little hope for the future, and a dismal day-to-day existence? Why are so many so-called “pro-life” folks infinitely more fascinated with the potential of an embryo, than with the reality of an already born child living in dire straits? Don’t argue that it isn’t so, because it is. I see images of these self-righteous jerks waving their anti-abortion signs outside of clinics and terrorizing women and physicians, but where are their placards when their beloved president vetoes a broad healthcare initiative for children? Would somebody please enlighten me?</p>
<p>Hindoo brings up very valid points, thank you very much. We live in such a liberal society. Let’s be realistic here, the majority of people giving up their kids are underprivileged minorities. Unwanted children do not typically end up noble prize winners. We all feel terrible that children grow up without parents and nobody wants it to happen, but unfortunately they are a burden on society, and sometimes it’s better if we avoid having them come into the world.</p>
<p>Then again, sometimes rich white kids born to affluent parents, planned and loved, end up being shooters at their high schools.</p>
<p>As a pro-life Catholic, I do not revere the fetus more than a baby – all life is precious to me. I have worked with children for the past 20 years, and I care deeply about them, whether or not they are mine. </p>
<p>Why do some of you set up these artificial dichotomies? That, if one is pro-life, then one doesn’t care about crack babies or abused children? That is just so insulting! You know just about NOTHING about pro-life people if you think that. And, in fact, the pro-life people I know do a great deal to support women who are pregnant in less than ideal circumstances.</p>
<p>As far as pro-life people “knowing” what’s right for everyone else, you just don’t get it. I think murder is wrong in all cases. If you accept, as I do, that the fetus is fully human, and alive, then to end that life is murder. Each fetus has unique DNA – it resides in the mother, but it is NOT the mother. I can’t condone murder, even if you think you have a good reason. It’s like child abuse – just because I observe someone else beating their child, I’m not going to ignore it, and just say, “That’s just their choice regarding discpline.”</p>
<p>07DAD, your post #85 is just the most prejudiced, hateful kind of vitriol that I’m sure we have no basis for any further conversation.</p>
<p>sjmom: You are an example of a true Christian doing true Christian work. I admire your efforts to help children, and I agree with your statement about abortion being murder.</p>
<p>In all fairness to 07Dad, I can relate to much of what he was saying. He may have made the mistake of over-generlizing, so that it came across as being directed at all prolifers. I resent any sort of over-generalizing. Clearly, not all pro-lifers are hypocrites who care nothing about children already born. You are a good example of that.</p>
<p>But, it is true that many of the vocal, political, evangelical anti-abortion activists who call themselves ‘Christian’ do unfortunately display the sort of hypocrisy that 07Dad was referring to. As I mentioned in an earlier post about the man at the fair booth, I too have encountered such people. My son has gotten into heated debates with ‘Christian’ teens who argued that there should not be ANY welfare or ANY help or ANY compassion for pregnant teens whatsoever, since they ‘sinned.’ I was shocked and appalled to hear them say this.</p>
<p>People like this, and the ones who say “all gays should be killed” or “we don’t need to be concerned about the Iraqi babies since they are doomed to hell anyway” - now THOSE are prejudiced, hateful vitriol and those kinds of statements have often come from the extremists in our very own country.</p>
<p>Hate, extremism, prejudice…are wrong wherever they are found.</p>
<p>07Dad: Not all prolifers are as you described. Probably the vast majority are more like sjmom. They give free stuff to pregnant women and provide many resources. They run adoption agencies.</p>
<p>Let’s be fair and when we’re venting, at least try to acknowledge that we’re not directing our vent at ALL the people in that category, but an extreme, vocal few.</p>
<p>regarding post #85 and post #91… I believe there are different attitudes amongst different anti-abortion supporters, just as I’ve tried to get across there are different approaches to Christianity, such as evangelical Christian and Protestant Christianity (just two to name off the top of my head). sjmom: do you really want to be affiliated with those who feel so strongly against abortions that they bomb clinics and kill abortion providers? I’m talking about the extremists, but there are enough of them out there to cause concern. I think their actions often get the bulk of the media attention. </p>
<p>While I am pro-choice, I believe there are very dedicated people out there, who call themselves pro-life, who are looking to work with the pro-choice side to reduce abortions. It will take an effort on both sides to accomplish this.</p>
<p>And sjmom, I believe there’s an implicit suggestion in some of these posts that many of the more extreme anti-choice people are also ones who are very vocal about supporting the war (or warfare in general). I know that as a church, the Roman Catholic church has been pretty clear in its statements that it believes this war is wrong. But you do have to admit, there are some wackos out there, who subscribe to extremist positions on many things, who sometimes get more attention spouting anti-choice propaganda, than any of the other issues they support. So I’d say there are dichotomies, because if there weren’t, we’d be grouping all anti-choice people in the same group, including those who take extreme actions. </p>
<p>I think the operative words in your post were “the pro-life people I know”.</p>
<p>cross posted with lealdragon</p>
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<p>I agree!!! Both sides need to acknowledge that they’ll never agree, but that abortion is not a very nice thing, whether it’s considered murder or not, it’s still not a good thing for the woman to have to go thru. Both sides should work together to reduce the causes of abortion. That’s the stance I support. Unfortunately there are extremists on both sides who are unwilling to budge at all. </p>
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<p>Those whom I’ve met were not Catholic but evangelical. Some are those who actually promote war in order to bring about events so that Jesus will return.</p>
<p>The fact that the very concept of war goes against everything Jesus was about, does not seem to enter their minds. They seem to be living in the old testament.</p>
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<p>I find it interesting… I was brought up Catholic and do not remember any sort of social gospel inclination. Now it seems the two major religious traditions that are most anti-war are Catholic and Mennonites (and related traditions). (I’m not Catholic anymore)</p>
<p>I went to a lecture this past week on profiteering and the war. Although Blackwater was certainly highlighted as the most prominent corporation to profit from this war, there are many, many others. I was truly clueless about the the number of mercenaries that are present in the middle East. They equal our troop numbers, and they make a whole hell of a lot money more than our troops. This lecture was given by a Jesuit priest from Marquette University who has been studying war profiteering for the last four years (by the way, he is Lebanese) and is now trying to start a grassroots movement started to educate Americans on how sinister this all is. From my experience and observation, this war is supported by those who are making fortunes off of it, who are also the ones who want to speed the return of Jesus. Those are two very deadly combinations.</p>
<p>Social Justice has been part of the teachings of the Catholic Church for as long as I remember – at least since Vatican II.</p>
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[Catholic</a> Social Justice Catholic Social Teaching](<a href=“http://www.ecatholic2000.com/sj/socjust.shtml]Catholic”>Catholic Social Justice Catholic Social Teaching)</p>
<p>I’m still waiting for an explanation as to why embryos take precedent over babies, toddlers, tweens, teens, mothers, people with spinal injuries, etc.</p>
<p>“Why do some of you set up these artificial dichotomies? That, if one is pro-life, then one doesn’t care about crack babies or abused children? That is just so insulting!”</p>
<p>Oh, I’m certain that there are plenty of anti-abortion folks out there who "care "about crack babies and abused children, in some abstract, remote way. But it’s ever so much easier to say “that’s so sad,” then slap a “pro-life” bumper sticker on their car and boycott clinics. </p>
<p>So tell me, please, where exactly are these self-righteous, God-fearing, life-loving folks when it comes to protesting Bush’s vile policies regarding Iraq and health care for American children? He is the worst kind of hypocrite imaginable–a “pro-choice” good ol’ boy, who loves unborn babies but has nothing but contempt for anyone in the post-womb phase. Unless they happen to run a corporation or have plenty of money. … And no. There was nothing remotely hateful or vitriolic in post #85.</p>
<p>Hindoo, what do you mean? Who ever said that embryos take precedence over babies etc? Pro life proponents would say that embryos have EQUAL value and EQUAL rights, not superior value or superior rights. It’s like saying that your oldest child takes precedence over your youngest child. It just doesn’t make sense.</p>
<p>Your post #98 is such a conflation of issues, that it lacks any logic or anything to debate.</p>
<p>I’m sure there are plenty of pro life people who are against the war, and pro choice people who are in favor of it. The gross overgeneralization makes it impossible to discuss this.</p>
<p>Actually, I will not post any further on this topic, so enjoy the rest of your discussion.</p>
<p>As I said Sjmom–No one has to SAY that embryos take precedence over everyone else. Actions can be ever so much louder than words, as when “pro-life” folks carry on loudly against stem cell research. That pretty much says it all, eh? And where’s the indignation against Bush and his anti-child agenda?</p>