CF: Thanks! I didn’t mean for you to type it out. I have those skills. You have been quoting the book and I assumed you were copying text. sorry about that.
adding: That section really blew me away. How do others respond??
There were no sororities at my school when I was there. There is no chance that I would have rushed if there had been.
CF-thanks for typing the section. That certainly answered my question.
I’m not sure how the college student population of Indiana (the state) compares to that of the rest of the country, but the students seem receptive to Greek life–IU ~17%, Purdue 20%, Butler 35%, DePauw 70%, Wabash 65%, Valpo 17%. Just guessing the percentage of students who go Greek is higher in Indiana than many other states.
You’re right, @sryrstress, and as Pizzagirl pointed out, the Indiana directional colleges have Greek life too.
I hadn’t thought about the sorority scene at the directional colleges. I have to wonder if the same lower SES girls who ended up being isolates in the party dorm at IU would have been the socialites at the directional universities, creating another group of social isolates?
It seems that the costs of being a social isolate in a college setting -for whatever reason- can be immense and not limited to a greater likelihood of academic failure or vulnerability to poor academic decision making, and that the social capital a student brings to the table can make a difference in how much they continue to accumulate at some schools, and in some tracks, more than others.
^Thank you for articulating that so well. This is something I had never considered but seems to be very true. And if it’s true, it seems the university should have supports in place to help these students. Just like there are tutoring centers for those with academic problems, there should be resources directed to the social isolates. And we may not be able to expect them to seek out those resources out themselves.
Since I’m a helicopter, I don’t like this sink or swim idea. And the continuing importance of helicopters is clear from this book. There was a huge difference in outcomes between those with involved, savvy parents and those without. The university needs to fill this role for those without helicopters. It is easy to say they should be responsible for themselves by the time they get to college, but it seems most really aren’t. Some are really disadvantaged by the system.
Sororities can make a large university smaller, and can be a great benefit to those with fewer social skills, but in this book they disadvantage many many many more than they advantage in that respect.
“I hadn’t thought about the sorority scene at the directional colleges. I have to wonder if the same lower SES girls who ended up being isolates in the party dorm at IU would have been the socialites at the directional universities, creating another group of social isolates?”
This assumes that the presence of sororities creates social isolates. But there are many girls who just aren’t interested, it’s not their thing and they go off and find friends in other ways - cafeteria, classes, extracurriculars. I don’t remember any of the non-sorority girls in my dorms being isolates - unless they chose to be. In point of fact , they probably socialized far more than I did and went to a lot more parties. I did not find - not does my son - that there is some kind of massive great divide between G and non G and once you cross the rubicon that’s that. My S is Greek and his girlfriend isn’t, which is a big “so what” amongst everyone concerned. I had girlfriends in other sororities and some who weren’t Greek at all. Big deal. You vastly overstate the all or nothing impact.
In the book, either the sororities are setting up a system that promotes social isolation, or the girls who join sororities are setting up that system. A lot is going on in the book and maybe I’ll try and make a chart to explain it to myself:
Only a small percentage of the university population belongs to the greek system but it is the major social presence on campus, enthusiastically supported by the administration and some students are coming to the school primarily to participate in that system.
It is a system that leaves some out who would have wanted to participate. Not everyone gets a bid. Not everyone can afford to rush and pledge. The system advantages those who already have and disadvantages those who have less.
The nice girls (as opposed to the mean girls) who may have organized events for the social isolates and who instead join sororities experience the sorority time suck, described in the book, and aren’t allowed enough time by their sororities to really impact those outside the group in any positive way.
The sorority lifestyle, supported by the administration, creates a campus norm and culture in which many who may have wanted to participate are excluded. Even those who have no interest can’t get away from that lifestyle. The book describes classrooms facing sorority houses where loud daytime social activities take place. This echos the noise disruptions of the sorority mean girls on the hall. Sororities are intruding into the lives of those who don’t belong. They are sucking up the space in a very unpleasant manner.
Everyone needs a tribe. Because I don’t remember isolates in my dorm doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. I was focused on my tribe and not on them. The situation described in the book may or may not be extreme. It is awful.
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PG: We have been on a lot of sorority threads together. You have said you were not very social and the sorority was very useful to you. I think I remember when I wrote about my shy niece who would have just sat in her dorm room alone all day without sorority membership, that you said “me, too.”
If you had been on this hall, and not gotten a bid, how would you have handled it? Would that have had a negative impact on your academic performance and college experience as it did in the case of the isolates on this hall?
Your question to CF in #218 made me wonder about how you might have been impacted by sorority rejection.
@frazzled2thecore, for women, you mean? And even then, you’re extrapolating from the experiences of one group.
@alh, I look forward to you donating money to set these centers up at our fine public universities.
@Pizzagirl, you also didn’t attend a big state school (or big private like USC) with a powerful hierarchical Greek structure, however. The dynamics could be quite different at IU. In fact, the dynamics seem to differ even between IU and UIUC even though both are big publics close to each other and UIUC is even more Greek. Though maybe that’s due more to the coloring done by the authors of the study. Would be interesting to see a similar study done on girls at UIUC.
Even at IU, if around 80% of the kids are not Greek, there HAS to be some other socializing going on. I can’t imagine all the non-Greek kids spending 3+ years sitting in their dorm rooms or apartments with nothing to do all weekend because they aren’t admitted to the frat parties. I know plenty of kids at schools with huge frat presence that are not Greek and actually have a fine time.
Where did these women live after freshman year?
CF: I re-read your post on the other thread and you were clear, but my understanding was not. Sorry about that.
Perhaps colleges need to discuss these issues during orientation. What to do if you have roommate troubles? What if you end up on an unfriendly floor? Here are some resources and ideas. Do they do that? Would it even work?
“Everyone needs a tribe. Because I don’t remember isolates in my dorm doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. I was focused on my tribe and not on them. The situation described in the book may or may not be extreme. It is awful.”
I agree everyone needs a tribe. I guess I’m wondering – let’s take a school without sororities (like my D’s school). There are still cliques that emerge. There are still this group of girls who sit in the cafeteria together and don’t have much to do with that other set of girls. We all know the feeling of walking into a cafeteria or other social setting and having the panic of - who do I go sit with. I am not denying that it’s easier for some people than others. But what I am questioning is why the presence of sororities makes it any different. If I’m a social isolate because I haven’t hit it off with anyone on my floor and I have no one to sit with at lunch, that breaks my heart – but I just don’t see how sororities in particular have much to do with that. IOW, what’s the difference if it’s a bunch of giggly girls from the fourth floor or it’s a bunch of giggly girls from Kappa who are in the cafeteria? If the Kappas choose not to let anyone else sit at the lunch table, that’s not nice of course, but by the same token there’s no reason the bunch of giggly girls from the fourth floor are any more likely to do so. I knew the cliques where I was wanted, accepted, and not wanted.
“PG: If you had been on this hall, and not gotten a bid, how would you have handled it? Would that have had a negative impact on your academic performance and college experience as it did in the case of the isolates on this hall?”
Yes, I’m sure I would have been very upset, devastated. To what extent it would impact my academics, I don’t know, but it certainly would have impacted my experience.
But again – and Purple Titan, you correct me if you think I’m observing NU incorrectly – there are no reasons for systems to be designed that way.
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There is no reason that a Greek system can’t design a quota such that as long as you go through and don’t cut any houses, you will be all but guaranteed a place on bid day – Indiana’s system, I think, is not very nice at all. That was one of the nice things about my system – the “nerdy girls” (for lack of a better term) still had a place to go. They still could enjoy sisterhood, etc.
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There is no a priori reason that being in a sorority means that you can’t also go for coffee or sit in the cafeteria or play cards or go out with the girls on your floor. None whatsoever. One of my best friends whom I lived with when we were in the house – her senior year, she went and lived in an apartment with 3 non-Greek girls. That was fine! They were her friends! No one thought twice about “associating” with someone who wasn’t in the same house. That whole thing I find ridiculous and eye-roll-worthy.
The system I was in is one of the oldest systems in the country. My house was established in 1881 and almost all the other houses were established prior to 1900. Most of our chapters were single-letter chapters (=by which I mean they were among the first twenty or so chapters of that sorority). I am not claiming that our system was perfect by any means. There are still aspects of Greek life that aren’t good. But these seem to be aspects of design, not intrinsic to the experience. How Indiana does it is just one way. There are other ways.
“@Pizzagirl, you also didn’t attend a big state school (or big private like USC) with a powerful hierarchical Greek structure, however. The dynamics could be quite different at IU. In fact, the dynamics seem to differ even between IU and UIUC even though both are big publics close to each other and UIUC is even more Greek.”
That may very well be true. Anyway, your job is to keep me honest 
“Because I don’t remember isolates in my dorm doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. I was focused on my tribe and not on them.”
Agreed. I guess my question is - how does the group of girls from the fourth floor who don’t really hang out with anyone else create less isolation than the group of sorority girls who don’t really hang out with anyone else.
There are things that res life can do – assign friendship pairs, have all-dorm activities, ice cream parties, watch the Oscars together, sponsor dorm intramurals, trips to the nearby city, etc. My S does a lot of that in the context of being an RA. It’s not his job to befriend everybody, but it is his job to ensure that no one is “actively lonely” (unless they choose to be). I guess I’m surprised the RA’s didn’t do more along these lines.
Purple Titan: I think you have a great point. If state flagships are no longer able to serve as appropriate educational choices for their instate working class populations, the flagships need to make that clear. Those groups that would be disadvantaged by flagship attendance need to be directed to more appropriate choices. If the flagships need the out of state party money to survive, and can’t service others adequately, that’s fine. But they no longer serve the mission of providing social mobility to in state residents and we need to quit believing they do. A lot of us still believe in the original mission and we need to get it through our heads it no longer exists.
Then we can decide how we want to address that reality. Do we want colleges to exist that provide opportunities for social mobility or can society no longer afford that? If we can’t afford it and don’t provide it, let’s not encourage students taking out loans for a lost cause, because that just further disadvantages them. If society can’t help them, let’s just make that very clear.
But I don’t think the charge being leveled here is that IU can’t serve as a valid educational choice for in-state working class populations. It is that res life may need to keep a stronger finger on the pulse of what’s going on in dorms to ensure that those who aren’t immediately “swooped up” by Greek life still feel wanted, part of a tribe - and give them the tools to create that tribe in other ways, whether it’s through the dorm or through other activities.
I’m also not convinced that the inability to have those tools at one’s immediate disposal is necessarily linked to SES. Shy is shy regardless of SES. I was of a perfectly fine SES level and I could have easily kept to myself.
PG: The cafeteria example is great. I am not shy. Frequently I may miss social clues and try to insert myself into a group that doesn’t really want me. I try not to do that.
If I walk into that cafeteria by myself, knowing no one, I’m going to look around and see what’s up. If there are only groups, I am going to sit at the edge of one of those groups and introduce myself, make a little chit chat and see if they follow it up. If they don’t I will do my best not to interrupt their conversations, which is always a struggle because I’m way more chatty than appropriate and have a bad habit of interrupting others.
If there are groups and singletons, I am going to sit by a singleton and introduce myself and start a conversation if she is interested in one. (If someone seems intent on a book, I am not going to intrude because sometimes I like to sit by myself and eat and read and I respect that decision.) I am going to choose the table with one girl or two girls over the table with many, when there is a choice, for a variety of reasons. It is an easier social endeavor. It is usually a nice thing to do. It will increase my social capital in a variety of ways. (frazzled2thecore has me thinking about social capital!)
Now, if I have pledged a sorority and walk into the cafeteria, I am going to sit with the other pledges and actives. I no longer have the option of sitting with the single girl or the small group. I have committed myself to the large group. The large group may be nice girls, but the other tables have nice girls as well. I don’t particularly care where I sit. It isn’t that important to me, but now I am part of the excluding group. That is an unpleasant thought.
One final thought: I will leave a small group that purposefully excludes. Momof2and gave the mean girl playground example. I experienced another version of this. The playground moms invite me for coffee and playgroup at one of their houses. At their party they tell me, we have a coffee group/playgroup but keep it small, so please don’t mention this to others. I smile sweetly, say nothing, but think, “**** that” and create a competing coffee group/ playgroup that outgrows my house, rents a church hall, and has divided into two groups based on children’s age, by the time my kids age out of it. They mean moms participated, too, after a while. They didn’t even know they were mean.
Years later some of my first playgroup friends told me they thought I was more than a little strange, inviting strangers over to my house in a culture that really didn’t do that, and they wondered if something was wrong with me, but I seemed kind of nice and sort of desperate so they decided it was worth taking a chance on accepting the invitation. They felt sorry for me.
They are a bunch of different ways to interpret these situations. I thought I was rescuing them. They thought they were rescuing me. My intervention may have been totally unnecessary. Maybe I was the only one even wanting the playgroup (except for the women who had already included me and I rejected their advances) who knows? I obviously don’t.