The one thing it did confirm to me was, despite the notion on CC that the wealthy are all falling all over themselves to send their kids to the Ivy League because they need to impress the neighbors and get the right credentials to ensure their continued material success, it’s absolutely not true. I’m willing to bet none of the “rich girl parents” were embarrassed in the least that their daughters were going to IU instead of HYPSM. Because they (correctly) know that there are money and connections to be found everywhere and they (correctly) know that it’s not just sheer SAT brainpower that gets you ahead in life.
It’s the group one cut below the “rich girl parents” who thinks that connections, networking, and status are only found at the tippy-top schools and who mistakenly think that CEO kids wouldn’t be caught dead anywhere but.
Thanks PG. I think I will save my money (unless it is at my library). It is an interesting study, but way too limited in scope to be useful in drawing any broad conclusions about IU or any other college.
Now I’m conflicted whether or not to buy the book…I was sort of interested since I went to a small, wealthy (and I was self-pay) LAC with lots of daddy’s girls, D will be a college freshman next fall, and I’m in Indiana. FWIW, I think there’s been a steady divergence in the last 5-10 years in IU and Purdue being seen as equal state flagships. Purdue has increasingly become more difficult to gain acceptance and IU is seen as a greater party school.
Its a pervasive theme these days. It doesn’t have to actually be good fortune, though. People resent others who work harder and are smarter too. Freudenshade sells.
I remember feeling very sorry for some of the girls, who had ventured away from home for the first time, and found difficulties that led them back to a small town life, a boyfriend, a less than professional job. Maybe they didn’t really want to get away, but if Indiana was their one chance, obstacles (not enough money and needing to hold down a job, too much partying early on so poor grades, not building up prerequisites to get into a more demanding major) meant they were unlikely to move out of their SES status coming in. I don’t remember the tone as much as feeling a sense of compassion for the subjects. (And pure joy for the one young woman who did well by going after resources at the school, I don’t remember her field, maybe physician’s assistant or something like that.)
IU and PU weren’t seen as dual flagships in IN before? I always saw them that way. One’s stronger in STEM fields; the other is stronger in non-STEM fields. Other that fields which they are known for, they have a similar amount of prestige as well.
I do think they were seen as dual flagships before. I think, for many Hoosiers, that view is changing. I also think Purdue is putting resources and marketing into being seen as the more academic of the two. I didn’t attend Purdue; neither did my kids. Just my opinion living here and having kids go through the process the last 8 years.
I felt sorry for some of the girls, too. However, their troubles were not the “fault” of unrelated rich girls who did their own thing. The book’s thesis seemed to vacillate between scorning the party lifestyle and then being upset that the poorer girls didn’t get to be a part of it.
Btw I scorn the party lifestyle myself. But then I don’t feel bad that I’m not included in a lifestyle I don’t want to be in in the first place with people whose values I don’t admire or care for.
It’s rather like saying my inability to get a smoking hot body is the fault of the rich housewives who have the time to work out and have them. We get that the authors scorned the rich party girls – they weren’t my style either. But they weren’t to “blame” for any of the issues facing the strivers, other than being loud at 3 am.
I’d love to see timeline stats for ALL IU grads. I met some in grad school and they did not come from money but got into full funded PhD programs.I think authors are full of crap.
It seems to me a mistake to compare job opportunities available to baby boomers to those available to their children.
After reading the free intro, I have finally got this book downloaded to the kindle. It was a comedy of errors but mission accomplished. Somehow I have lost the keyboard on the kindle and had to go back to my computer to use that keyboard. I am continuing the book now. The first part about women choosing spouses (and what spouses were available to them) was interesting and something I had wondered about being discussed.
Hmm, I thought this might be interesting but after reading this thread I have a feeling I would not like either group of girls much and if the moral is being rich makes things easier that is not exactly news so maybe not. Well see.
This is a false dichotomy. We should distinguish between rich kids who aren’t HYPSM material (almost all rich kids) and rich kids who not only are not HYPSM material, but disdain academics and disturb their more studious dorm neighbors by returning drunk and shrieking in the middle of the night during finals week.
The rich women in this study were a subset of all rich women. The rich women who wanted to study at Indiana knew enough to stay away from the party dorm, so that they wouldn’t be disturbed by nasty, noisy, shallow neighbors.
They were to the extent that the social women were loud, messy and disruptive in the dorm.
There are many support organizations to identify first gen, low income and minority students in middle and high school. These organization provide extra structure and support until high school graduation, but some are now finding that students still need support after admittance to college.
Quite a few programs appear to be available at Indiana. http://www.indiana.edu/~dema/resources/precollege_pgms.shtml
Oldest daughters lac has a peer mentor support program that I believe is mainly utilized by freshmen, although upperclass students may then become mentors.
One of the support programs at younger daughters high school is College Access Now, which now supports students through university graduation, although it did not yet do so when she was involved. http://www.collegeaccessnow.org
Not really sure if the dorm D lived in freshman year at her directional U was a " party" dorm, but she did choose to move off campus the next year.
I particularly liked the interview with Maria Shriver. When I read the book, I got the impression that the social half of the cohort were horrible people who ought to be loaded up on a rocket and shot into the sun. The authors are much nicer than I am:
A couple of corrections are in order here. First, I said upthread that the researchers started out the project expecting to examine hook-ups and sexuality. That is incorrect, as several of the articles make clear. I’m sorry for the error, a particularly egregious one since I “corrected” another poster. I apologize.
Second, upthread PG wrote:
I only recall one instance in the book where someone made disparaging remarks about LBGT students. On p. 97, we learn that Brianna came out to her roommate Julie, a conservative Christian, who was freaked out and broadcast her negative reaction to the floor. She was shunned for it. This is not an example of privileged women shunning a less privileged woman for understandable reasons. The reasons for shunning might be understandable, but Julie was an upper middle class out of stater, not an Indiana small town girl.
I finished the book and wanted to answer the questions Cardinal Fang posed to us in post #1. Her questions are in bold.
How much support does a flagship university owe to students whose parents are not savvy about college?
A flagship university owes students a level of advising that was not apparent in these stories. It doesn’t matter whether their families are savvy or not. They deserve decent advising.
**Should a flagship university consider itself a force for social mobility? **
I believe that should be an important part of the mission of a state flagship university.
How much should parents intervene in their children’s college career?
It is impossible for me to generalize how much parents should intervene in their children’s college careers. This is not one size fits all. Children mature at different rates.
How much academic learning should colleges expect from graduates? Should flagship colleges even offer questionable majors like Tourism and Apparel Merchandising?
I think the book is about Indiana, which I believe is a land grant college. (If not the rest of this answer doesn’t make sense)
This mission of a land grant college originally was much different than the mission of HYP. What the mission is today as research universities, I don’t know.
I enjoyed this book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Lost-Art-Dress-America/dp/0465036716 which describes home economics departments at the land grant colleges. They were important departments. They got closed down. I wonder if Apparel Merchandising is a leftover from home ec?
Should we advise parents of limited means to send their children to directional universities instead of instate flagships?
I have no idea.
It was an easy read and I encourage those the least bit interested to read it themselves. I think the authors brought some prejudices to their analysis and will look up some quotes later that seem to me to support my opinion. I found the book rather fascinating, but find more fascinating the very different reactions CF and PG had to it. There is also a quote I want to pull out about what I read as support for my position that fraternities have power, on campus and beyond.
I don’t believe I can think about this anymore right now. The kindle made my eyes hurt. I’ll find my quotes and thoughts tomorrow.
CF: thanks for the recommendation and the book club:)
Huge state flagships have been sink-or-swim for quite a while now. Back in the day, entrance requirements in to them were low (or lower, certainly lower than many private elites), but schools like Purdue, UIUC, Cal, UCLA, UMich, UW-Madison, etc. still turned out impressive grads in STEM fields because the professors there held their students to high standards (and a not insignificant portion got weeded out).
Support services, advising, and social mobility are all very nice, but that amount of hand-holding in these giant institutions requires money, no? Where are you suggesting that that money comes from? Keep in mind that state governments have been cutting, not increasing spending on their state schools in recent decades, and in general, their per capita endowment is far below that of the elite private universities and LACs.