<p>Yes. The PERSONAL conversations, emails, and FB exchanges I have had/seen with numerous Penn State alums. </p>
<p>I understand that there are many Penn State football fanatics (in the worse sense of the word) out there - just as there are many Alabama, USC, LSU, Florida, Notre Dame, UT, Michgan, etc fanatics. But just because one group is more vocal than the other doesn’t mean it is the majority viewpoint.</p>
<p>Editing -
I am sure there are many people who want to keep football BECAUSE it’s football. There are many others who just don’t see how shutting down the football program does anything to help, compensate, or ease the pain of the victims. NOTHING will do that. </p>
<p>Did anyone stop to think that since many (most?) of the victims are local - that the people that might be economically impacted (owners, employees) by shutting down the football program just might be related to some of these boys/men?</p>
<p>Personally, I have never been to a game, and I don’t care about games played on the Big Ten Network (can’t watch the games anyway). But I don’t like seeing the local employers/employees punished.</p>
<p>I don’t either. But the very fact that the Penn State community just can’t seem to envision life without football is what makes it so dangerous. IMO the best thing for the university would be to go back to its purpose – education – without the distraction of King Football. </p>
<p>I’m glad to hear that so many Penn Staters are questioning the football program in private conversations. Very few of them are speaking out publicly and I think they need to be heard, if only to bring some balance. Do you know why they’re not?</p>
<p>"I am sure there are many people who want to keep football BECAUSE it’s football. There are many others who just don’t see how shutting down the football program does anything to help, compensate, or ease the pain of the victims. NOTHING will do that. "</p>
<p>Right, because god forbid there’s no football. That’s the heart of the problem.</p>
How can anyone be sure of that? The victims know Sandusky could have been stopped, but wasn’t to protect the prestige of the football program. Having it shut down could be very cathartic for them. It could help give them a feeling that there is justice in this world after all. I would think they cringe every time they hear or see anything Penn State football.</p>
<p>You know, I have seen a host of irrational comments regarding Penn State that it makes me question some posters’ motives. </p>
<p>On the Penn State forum:</p>
<p>-- “Saying the students and community are completely blameless is like saying the citizens around Auschwitz and Dachau were completely blameless.”</p>
<p>-- LakeClouds posted: “To me it’s shocking that students and others don’t riot and tear down the statue as was done with Sadam Husseins.” </p>
<p>In light of tragic events that have occurred on our nation’s campuses and in our schools, I find this second comment more than just insensitive, but shockingly irresponsible. I posted to that effect. Perhaps LakeCloud did not read PizzaGirl’s criminality deterrence regarding stealing hubcaps. </p>
<p>You know I was thinking about the negative broad-brush that has been painted on Penn State. Could an analogy be:</p>
<p>FBI shows up at my next-door neighbor’s house. Turns out, my neighbor participates in a pedophile ring and is subsequently charged; or, my neighbor knows about a pedophile ring and does not alert the authorities. We live on the same street, probably uphold similar values, wave to each other, care about and take tremendous pride in our community, maybe watch our kids play at baseball games, and I know nothing about his nefarious activities. I feel a world shattering sadness for his victims, am shocked, disgusted and question my unawareness Yet, I am likened to the citizenry of Auschwitz and Dachau? Moreover, anything I do anything to expiate what I feel is my sin of unawareness/ignorance is questioned as to motive?</p>
<p>Probably not a great analogy, but perhaps some of the elements ring true. I’m not a Penn Stater, but I’m not surprised they’ve closed ranks.</p>
<p>LasMa, I’m going to make wild generalizations here: the rabid loyalist football adherants and those at the burn-it-all-down end of things are, by nature, much more inclined to shoot off their mouths to any media outlet (print or electronic) who will listen. Moderates don’t see the point in wading into the fray, convinced that you can’t reason with those on the far ends of this. </p>
<p>You should allow that there is a difference between wanting to keep football for football’s sake (imho, baaaad idea that got us here) and wanting to keep some kind of football in order to keep the economy upright. That being said, I think the most painful thing the NCAA could do is give PSU (or it could give itself, but the BOT is dumber than dirt)is a 3 yr. bowl ban/tv ban/scholarship whack/hugenormous fine to go to charity. But if PSU were to be benched for a year, we’d live. It’s only 6 Saturdays. I suspect the burn-it-all-down crowd will be disappointed by the lack of impact, and come back looking for something else later.</p>
<p>All it would take is just a a smidge of thinking outside the box.</p>
<p>Penn State should voluntarily shut down the football program for X years, and replace those games with something else, something that would support the local economy by drawing in some crowds, perhaps by using the football stadium and surrounding parking lots in a completely different way. </p>
<p>Arts festivals? Concerts? “New Games”? Food festivals? Something different, that allows the hotels, restaurants, local vendors to make some money to replace what they’ve lost with a football ban. And of course any money brought in with ticket sales to the events goes directly to a fund, administered by an outside firm, to be dispersed to children’s charities, research on pediphilia, funds for the victims, etc.</p>
<p>pilot2012 – yes, there have been outrageous statements here written probably in the heat of disgust, on both sides.</p>
<p>-- “Saying the students and community are completely blameless is like saying the citizens around Auschwitz and Dachau were completely blameless.”</p>
<p>Auschwitz and Dachau are completely different here. You would have to change your analogy to say millions of kids were being delivered to your neighbor’s house by trainload and the sounds of screaming were heard daily.</p>
<p>Goingmyway, I agree that the students and the community are blameless. The BOT must accept responsibility for among other things, failing to adopt good governance rules in 2004, failing to see that the Clery Act was adhered with (and that PSU HR/legal had the resources and the clout to see it through), and failing to provide any meaningfull oversight of the football program.</p>
<p>^ But … it was the FOOTBALL CULTURE that led to those failures, and the students and the community are an integral part of that culture. Unless that culture is radically changed, it will be business as usual.</p>
<p>Annasdad, yes the football culture led to the problems, and as I said, I think the Trustees should be held accountable for the lack of oversight of the FB program. Otherwise, are you saying that every student at a big football school is just as guilty, because it could have happened there too? I am encouraged that the NCAA and the BigTen are taking this seriously, as I have yet to see any signs that the PSU trustees are.</p>
<p>pilot2012–I can understand your analogy about having a neighbor that you know nothing about–but what if people start telling you things about unethical activities going on next door–and you immediately shut them out, criticizing them and accusing them of lying and being “out to get” your wonderful, saint-like neighbor–and it happens again, and again, and again–how long is it fair or accurate to say that you knew nothing and had no idea that bad things were going on–did the people at Penn State really not know–or did they just not want to know.</p>
<p>Yes, Grcxx that point was considered many, maybe close to 40 pages ago.(your post 6621)
Most of those that posted a response to that possibility felt it was unfortunate, but that innocent people almost always get hurt when someone chooses to break the law. I gave the example that a convicted embezzler sent to jail no longer supports his wife/family with legal earnings, and the community- grocery, pharmacy, restaurants, trash haulers, etc no longer get paid by this family. But while we don’t hear an outcry for the “economic impact” of those innocents due to an embezzler, some have cried “foul!” when it’s due to losing football. The fault of innocents that might get an economic hurt lies with the perpetrator that chose illegal actions, and put all he touched(no pun intended) at risk.</p>
<p>greenbutton, yes, I do allow that there’s a difference in the motive. But regardless of motive, the result is the same – football stays. And as long as football stays, the football culture stays. And it was not football per se that led to this. It was the football culture. </p>
<p>BTW, I have to agree with you about the BOT. Someday, they will be in the textbooks as a case study in how not to manage a crisis. Incredible.</p>
<p>A question was asked why Penn Staters are not more forthcoming with their opinions.</p>
<p>Please note that I did not make the comparison of Auschwitz and Dachau, another poster did. I guess in the heat of the moment, that poster felt confident, indeed comfortable, asserting ALL Penn State students and the community knowingly was aware of the victimization and chose to not act. It is those kind of comments that do NOTHING to further any dialogue and ultimately change the tenor of future discussion. </p>
<p>Annasdad, you keep assigning this football culture statement as though it is unique to Penn State. Regretfully, it is not; it is a manifestation of our society. The egregious and deplorable leadership failures are sadly Penn States’ unique legacy.</p>
<p>rcefn. I don’t understand when you say “people.” I’m not trying to be cavalier or antagonistic … really trying to understand. Are you saying the students, the faculty, the general community (i.e. the people) all knew?</p>
<p>It is not in the medias interest to present those with attachments to PSU as agreeing that football needs to go. It does not make a good story. The media has its own agenda.</p>
<p>Other than joe Paterno being in the football program for so long PSU football culture was no bigger than any other big football school.</p>
<p>Those of you who have never been in state college or at PSU for some time have no real experience with the school can only have opinions based on what you read or hear.</p>
<p>As much as you want to believe you KNOW PSU culture… You don’t and I am tired of your rhetoric.</p>
<p>I don’t think the students or community are “at fault” in the sense that they knew what Sandusky was doing or were thinking, “Child molestors are awesome!”</p>
<p>But I do think their frantic devotion to football and idolation of Joe Paterno made this tragedy possible. Maybe even inevitable.</p>
<p>The students and alums loved football above all else.</p>
<p>Football brought in prestige and attention like nothing else.</p>
<p>Therefore when something threatened to tarnish the reputation of the football program, Paterno et al were will to protect the program at all costs.</p>
<p>No, the students didn’t know. But they were still little cogs driving that machine. And that machine is still there. </p>
<p>Disassembling the current, football-driven culture isn’t just about making reparations to the victims (although that, too, is important); it’s also about preventing future victims. Hopefully the school will not be so unlucky as to hire another assistant-coach-child-molester (although who knows), but that is not the only way people can be victimized. This is to prevent teachers from looking the other way when football players cheat on tests, because Football Is So Important. It’s to make sure that football players do not receive lesser punishments than non-football players would for breaking the same rule because Football Is So Important. It’s to make sure no more staff members are driven away and shunned if they butt heads with a football coach, because Football Is So Important. It’s about making sure a rape victim isn’t dismissed as a “liar” or a “slut” or simply ignored completely if her rapist is connected with the football team, because Football Is So Important.</p>
<p>As LasMa has so eloquently said, the actions of Spanier, Paterno, and the others did not occur in a vacuum. The culture has to change in order to protect potential future victims.</p>
<p>If we find out that JoePa’s actions were the result of simple blackmail (that does remain a possibilty), folks would have to rethink what we think about football culture at Penn State. (But it still wouldn’t have much explanatory power for the rest of them.)</p>
<p>Meanwhile, still no comments from the cows (they call them faculty, though they haven’t earned the title.) This in itself tells me that football at Penn State needs a long vacation.</p>
<p>pilot2012–all of the above. I personally know of students, parents, and general community members who, when being told about transgressions and unethical activities under Paterno–refused to even consider, for one moment, that anything was going on–I had discussions with them five years ago, three years ago, two years ago–of course, not about the child molestations (who ever could have foreseen such amorality)–but about other questionable activities that should have been investigated–my point is that, for years, there have been signs of cover-ups and transgressions–so when these same people feign complete surprise, it baffles me. I could understand them saying that they were warned but chose not to believe–or that they were warned and investigated the situation and found Paterno to be innocent of any wrongdoings–but to act as if they had no idea whatsoever of some of the things going on under Coach just doesn’t make sense.</p>