Penn State Sandusky scandal

Parent Cafe
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Sure it is. We graduated a ton of our athletes, last time I looked more than any other major public football program out there. Our athlete’s academic results were similar across racial lines. Until this scandal, we had a very clean record with the NCAA, something only a coupld of schools could state. Our coach actively, vocally, and monetarily supported the academic side of the school.</p>

<p>So yes, it was pretty different. Not sure how that was bad yet.</p>

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And the revolving door at other schools is better why?</p>

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I grew up in that town and have not seen a PSU coach occupy the role of father in ANY way. Do you mean the athletes, the students, or the town in general, because I seriously have no idea what you are talking about here.</p>

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First - “liking and wanting to keep” is different than “deifying”.</p>

<p>Second - really? Never heard of Bear Bryant? Bobby Bowden? Knute Rockne? Woody Hayes? Barry Switzer? And how good were the academics at most of THEIR schools?</p>

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I don’t think it had NO BEARING, I think that the difference between PSU football culture and other-big-school football culture is so small and poorly defined that I think it is ridiculous to hold PSU football culture to blame while still cheering on other college football programs. And, for that matter, I think the vision of football culture in general is much greater than the actuality - whatever you or anyone else thinks football culture would accept, I think that there are damn few who would say that any positive gain from the coverup was or ever could have been worth the damage to those children. And I do not think whatever made those janitors or administrators think otherwise was unique to PSU.</p>

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<p>Nrd, most of what has been said here, on both sides, are opinions. There have been other coaches that have had long-term stays at colleges and have been revered while they were there - Bear Bryant comes to mind - although Paterno stayed longer than any of them, I believe. However, I’ll tell you why Paterno has been so revered. He valued academics - and the PSU football teams’ graduation rates have always been among the highest. He ran a clean program in terms of recruting violations, etc. I’ve never heard of an instance of professors being asked/pressured to pass a player who didn’t deserve it. I remember when Pete Harris (All-American, brother of Franco Harris) was declared academically ineligible and kicked off the team. Dug up an old quote from Paterno: "“He was a goof-off in high school and he was a goof-off here. What could I do about it? I don’t care whose brother he is.” The team was run the right way. Yet the team won - and won big. It was something to be proud of. Some of the other universities that won had players that were notorious for not going to class, getting kickbacks from alumni, etc. </p>

<p>Why am I telling you all this? To show what a “cultist” I am? No. I am trying to clarify the mindset of PSU students and alumni who had real reasons to respect how Paterno ran the team for decades. Then comes the Sandusky scandal. Is it possible Paterno was involved in the cover up? Of course it is. But the Freeh report only opened up the possibility. To many - and not just PSU alum - it did not offer decisive evidence. And whatever his involvement, there were so many others involved - in the univ. administration, in Second Mile, the governor’s office, etc. </p>

<p>How do I feel about it all? I agree with what cosmicfish said. It’s not all black and white. The choice is not: Freeh was 100% right about Paterno vs. Paterno is as pure as the driven snow. There are a whole lot of possibilities inbetween those two and I wish we could really know the full truth.</p>

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<p>Seriously? You don’t see that Joe was viewed as a father figure in a major way? “JoePa,” a play on the words Paterno and Pa?</p>

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<p>Oh, but there are many who truly believe one or the other. I agree that the truth is likely to be in the middle somewhere.</p>

<p>I also believe that the program he ran was nowhere near as pure as we had all believed. Cleaner than many, sure, possible, maybe probable, but the image of perfection was likely just an image. As sure as humans are imperfect, there is no such thing as a perfectly clean program-just one which has not been found out.</p>

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<p>Nrd, I went to Penn State. I have a lot of friends that are alumni. I don’t know anyone who thinks Joe Paterno was perfect, even before Sandusky. A lot of us thought he coached for too long, was too old-fashioned, etc. And I doubt he handled every problem with a player perfectly. Who said perfect? Who said pure? But he ran the program pretty darned well, esp. compared to other big-time college rivals. </p>

<p>And it seems on CC there are many, many people who accept Freeh’s conclusions as proven 100% fact. Some even speculate further, with no evidence. All I’ve seen pro-PSU posters here say is that there are gray areas. That they don’t want to jump to conclusions. That they believe Paterno is being used as the fall guy, and whatever involvement he had was exxagarated to deflect attention from others involved. And that’s what I’ve heard in real life as well. I’ve been up at Penn State - actually the weekend after the Freeh report was delivered. People were ****ed, people were upset - but no one said Paterno was perfect. They just didn’t like the rush to absolute judgement and villification that was going on.</p>

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<p>Sans Serif, there are many of the PSU faithful who really do think he was “perfect” and absolutely refuse to believe that he could have had any knowledge whatsoever of Sandusky’s behavior. That just seems really, really unlikely. Just as it’s highly unlikely that his program was anywhere near as clean as he would have liked the world to believe. </p>

<p>I think he was incredibly flawed just as most of us are. But in contrast to the average guy, I believe he felt massive pressure to not let the fans down, to not let it be known that there was a rat in Denmark. I don’t believe he wanted boys to be hurt, but he had priorities, and actively exposing Sandusky was apparently not one of them. He may well have been under the misguided notion that Sandusky could be stopped without having the whole thing become the exact circus it has become. In hindsight, his actions appear appallingly, woefully inadequate, which is not to say others were not contributing their own despicable silence themselves, or that he should land just under Sandusky on the responsibility hierarchy. Going so far as to suggest he knowingly bankrolled child trafficking? I certainly have seen zero proof of that, but I guess anything is possible and we will likely never know about everything that went down. </p>

<p>I, like many, never gave PSU a second’s thought, and being the SEC and BIG 12 snob that I am, wasn’t really all that impressed with the football program in the last decade, so wished no will ill on the program. If those other programs are shown to have been harboring a child pedophile for decades, they, too will deserve all the disgust we can give them. But this thread is about PSU, not Alabama, so the constant “this could have happened anywhere” shouted out by some seems like blatant attempts to deflect attention, imo.</p>

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<p>So you never gave PSU a second thought until now. I went there and still live in PA and know a lot of alumni. But you know better how people feel about Joe Paterno? Sure, there are some who refuse to think it’s even possible he ever did anything wrong. But they are a small minority. And the rest of your post - it’s what you THINK he did. It’s your opinion. It’s not fact - it’s an opinion based on the incomplete info we have. Same as I have an opinion based on the incomplete info we have. It’s interesting, though, that you’re willing to say “anything is possible” even with zero proof when it comes to theories of knowingly bankrolling child trafficking - but you will lend no credence to theories that he did not know about it - or knew less than is assumed. </p>

<p>And “this could have happened anywhere” is not to deflect attention. It’s to lend perspective. PSU did not have a uniquely horrible football culture that made this more possible than at another school. As cosmicfish said, " it is ridiculous to hold PSU football culture to blame while still cheering on other college football programs."</p>

<p>And a word about the origin of “JoePa”. The cheerleaders at football games would direct one side of the stadium to say one part of a phrase, and the other side to say the other part. For instance, one side would yell “Nittany!” The other side would yell “Lions!” Another phrase was “Joe Paterno.” So to even out the syllables, one side would yell “JoePa” and the other side would say “terno!” It sounded pretty cool. And that’s why people called him JoePa. No deep meaning. No father fixation. Just a fun football cheer.</p>

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<p>You’re right, I absolutely do not believe that JoPa had zero culpable knowledge about what his right hand man was doing. I just don’t. It’s an opinion (yep) based on not just the Freeh report, or the grand jury transcript, but on reading everything that comes our way, none of which is absolute proof lacking a video of the man admitting it. Even the faithful have put out there that the man was essentially the most powerful man on campus, involved in every facet of what went on in that athletic facility. Therefore, it defies logic to think he had no knowledge.</p>

<p>Saying JoPa was a father figure is not really the equivalent of saying there is a father fixation. I think he was indeed a father figure, probably in some very positive ways, and this has been said over and over by many of his former players and students. Are we seriously quibbling over the concept that JoePa was a father figure to many of the faithful? To a degree met by very few others, if any? But this near idolatry could potentially have created a huge pressure on his shoulders to live up to that idealized version of who he really was and the program he birthed. At best, he grossly mishandled the situation.</p>

<p>People on this thread keep saying that those unwilling to even consider Joe had a role in this tragedy are the minority, but I don’t see how that is so clear. I hope they are, because that kind of idolatry is really not healthy and helps to create the potential for really bad behavior.</p>

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No. JoePa was a play on the words “Joe” and “Paterno”.</p>

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Great! No doubt you have some evidence then? If you are going to state a “belief” slandering a program, it is always nice to present some kind of evidence that it happened, otherwise your “belief” comes across as capricious and malicious slander.</p>

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Great - name them please. I know a heck of a lot of “PSU faithful” and do not know ANY who think he was “perfect”. I know a few who are recognized only by soundbites in media that have grossly simplified their opinions so that they conveniently fit into “pro” or “anti” slots. But that is a fiction - living in that town for over two decades I don’t know any of these people that you seem to think are all over the place.</p>

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So the only place something can happen is the place it did happen? Phew, that’s a relief! I mean, the next time there is an abduction, or a murder, or a terrorist attack, I can take comfort in knowing that the place where it happened had unique characteristics that made it happen there, and since everyplace else is therefore lacking in those characteristics we have nothing to worry about!</p>

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Most powerful man on campus? No. Most powerful man in PSU athletics? Yeah, I believe that. But he was certainly not involved in “every facet of what went on”, nor could any individual - he tried to stay involved, but if we are not allowed to consider him supernaturally good lets not consider him supernaturally evil either. Sexual predators (especially serial offenders) are good at staying under the radar.</p>

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Yes! Perhaps you and I mean something different by “father figure” but this was a man that the vast majority of campus might have met once in passing at most - how much influence do you think he could have on these people?</p>

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<p>I’ve really stopped reading this thread because the same arguments are made over and over, but nothing has been said by anyone to change my opinion of Paterno. He was the one guy who had the requisite power to stop Sandusky. He didn’t.</p>

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Any person who had knowledge of what was going on had the power to stop Sandusky. A couple of janitors had the power. McQueary had the power. Curley, Schultz, Spanier, and Paterno had the power. Probably a few other people as well. The real issue then is who knew what Sandusky was up to, and with what degree of certainty.</p>

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<p>I don’t agree. I think Paterno controlled them all and nothing changed unless he willed it to be so. Paterno chose to cover it up so it was.</p>

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And you base this on what, exactly? And what do you think would have happened if McQueary (for example) had marched down to the police and sworn out a report against Sandusky?</p>

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<p>Matt Millen.</p>

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<p>[Penn</a> State Live - Blue Out raises $78,928 for Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape](<a href=“http://live.psu.edu/story/62042#nw5]Penn”>http://live.psu.edu/story/62042#nw5)</p>

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<p>I didn’t come back on this thread yesterday morning to hash out who is guilty, who’s to blame, etc. etc. This has been going around in circle for months and the arguments remain the same. I will continue to believe that there are many so-called PSU supporters speaking up - and many are choosing to not hear them or not listen. Maybe they aren’t taking out a billboard - but they are speaking up in many other ways - including taking part in new initiatives, clubs raising money, attending meetings, vigils and other events. etc. Most students at the school have a new awareness on child abuse and safety - and I believe this can make a difference in the lives of many children.</p>

<p>The reason I chose to post yesterday was because I don’t appreciate being called a “squealer”. I’m not an apologist. And most importantly, I find the term “cult” very demaning and offensive. I am a professional person, well-educated, a good mother and someone who has spent my life working with abused children. I’m not brain-washed, I don’t idolize anyone (other than my kids who I think are amazing!) and I truly understand the severity of what happened at Penn State. I’ve never made excuses, I’m willing to assess blame where it belongs, and I couldn’t care less about Joe Paterno before all this happened. Don’t lump me into some catergory or make me something I’m not…</p>

<p>My son is receiving an amazing education at Penn State. He is recieving every opportunity I would ever hope for. I am thankful for that. Penn State is a good fit for my son (and the full tuition scholarship can’t be beat!). I can separate the education my son is receiving from the abuse that happened. That doesn’t mean that I’m part of a cult, and it certainly doesn’t mean that I idolized anyone.</p>

<p>As for the squealing? I don’t think that even merits further comments…</p>

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<p>This is exactly right. And the PSU partisans are willing, even eager, to condemn them all for their inaction and cover-up - all that is except Paterno. St. Joe gets a pass. </p>

<p>They rioted when he was fired. They want to get rid of the Board for firing him. They are demanding he be posthumously reinstated.</p>

<p>We’ve heard it over and over. The janitors are cowardly villains. McQueary is self-serving scum and lousy coach to boot. Curley, Schultz, and Spanier should all be wearing stripes, the sooner the better. But JoePa? Heavens NO! Not JoePa! He won a lot of football games and graduated most of his players. We can’t possibly think ill of someone who accomplished all that, no matter how badly he failed the victims in this terrible crime. No, instead we still revere his memory and always will.</p>

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<p>Coreaur, I don’t know anyone who gives Joe Paterno a pass. Neither has the university. There are fringe elements everywhere. I don’t think most reasonable people blame the janitors either. The person to blame for all of this is in jail. Paterno has been identified as someone who should have reported any incidents to the police, which in a sense he did, and then Curly/Schultz/Spanier, et al should have taken it from there. That Paterno came up with alternatie ways to handle it should not have made any difference to them. That Paterno came up with alternate way to handle it is a shame on him, and I think that issue has been addressed, and he has been stripped of his reputation for it. Any monetary retributions are still in process, and I would not be surprised if Paterno is not named in the suits and his estate made liable along with the school, Second Mile, and Sandusky. But as terrible as all of this is, and terrible it is, I don’t put the entire blame on Paterno. There are plenty of others there who are liable. That he was a great football coach and graduated most of his players—so far as I know if it is true, then so be it. But he also turned his back and looked the other way when he knew someone was up to no good with children. I don’t think he is being given a pass, though there are plenty out there who would like to do so, and there are those who will say he was the mastermind of all of this. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, unlike Sandusky who clearly was a hands on predator, literally. </p>

<p>What is happening with the men who were abused as children? How are their cases being handled? What is being done to prevent this sort of thing from happening and making it clear that those who suspect such doings should report them and an infrastructure set up so that they can be investigated swiftly an action taken immediately to protect those possibly being abused? I would like to reas more about that being done, as I don’t believe this is the only place that this sort of thing happened, is happening and will happen. The BSA is involved in such doings; we all know about the Catholic church; private schools’ dirty secrets are coming out. This is not an isolated problem. Are other univeristies and organizations aware of the laws that Penn State officials did not even bother to read?</p>

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Cowardly, yes, but it is hard to call people at that socioeconomic level villains just because they feared to lose their jobs. They made the wrong call, but I cannot really blame them.</p>

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Yep. I mean, he was self-serving scum when I knew him, and I have seen nothing to indicate that he has changed. Plus, given his position and his statements, he should have had plenty of opportunity and cause.</p>

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Curley amd Schultz pretty clearly perjured themselves from what I have seen, and Spanier had more oversight on this issue than anyone else, making it really hard for him to claim innocence. All of these are well represented in the available evidence, but I simply want them to go to trial - if they are somehow innocent (a possibility given that there is evidence not yet released and that arguments have not yet been made) then I have no problem with them going free. If they are innocent.</p>

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He did a lot of other things as well, things that are inconsistent with any of the motivations offered for his actions. Most people do not know the character of any of the accused, except for Paterno who seemed to be a good guy - doubt in his case is more reasonable than doubt on the others. Plus, there is very little evidence indicting him - no first or second-person documents, third documents only between people under indictment, no indication that Paterno has ever been considered by any of the legal authorities involved to have committed any crime, etc. Mostly there is a lot of hearsay.</p>

<p>Oh, and most of us feel that Paterno screwed up, the question is did he knowingly participate in the cover-up of a serial child molestor, and that is what most of PSU thinks is not yet known. And not knowing, we are reluctant to condemn a man just because it is convenient for some to do so.</p>

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The size of the riot was exagerrated in the media, many of whom were there egging the students on so that it would be a better story. Note that the far larger vigil for the victims is largely absent from the media record.</p>

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There are many, MANY reasons for wanting to get rid of the Board. They demonstrated a devastating and willful lack of oversight of the university and its senior staff, fired men based not on evidence but to appease the media and their national audience, handled their actions and public relations in a stunningly incompetent manner, failed to review any of the charges made in any meaningful manner, failed to defend the university from attacks broader than the scope of the wrong, and demonstrated that their primary interests were in saving their own reputations and positions regardless of the cost to the rest of the university.</p>

<p>But if it pleases you to think that we all hate the BoT because they fired Paterno, go at it.</p>

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Now that you pose that, I must admit that Zombie JoePa on the sidelines is an excellent idea!</p>

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<p>I do think there is a cult. We should call it the Cult of N’uh, after the common Pennsylvania phrase heard in elementary schools across the state:</p>

<p>Ms. Teacher, Tommy took my pencil
Tommy: N’uh.</p>

<p>Hey! You hit me/looked at me funny/made fun of me/cut in line
N’uh. (for proper use, emphasize the second syllable: Nnnu–UHHH. The longer the UHHHHH, the more insulted you are. And usually, the more guilty as charged)</p>

<p>You can tell if you are in the Cult of N’uh by the following signs: An inability to concede rhetorical points to opposing pov. An inability to stop talking when you no longer have something new or constructive to offer the group who are trying to have the conversation. Interrupting. Baiting. Name-calling. Sarcasm. Bullying. An unnerving talent for generalizing. Possession of high-power 20/20 hindsight glasses. Your super power is reading minds, especially of dead people. The knowledge that all things published in media represent the entire story – the power of extrapolation from a small sample set. The amazing ability to infallibly assess a community you have never seen, participated in, or had knowledge of prior to November 2011. A relentless pursuit of a dead horse. </p>

<p>Have a nice day everyone. And cosmic, thanks for the excellent post. I was going to post the link to the demonstration being held at the Central Mt board meeting, but I know that doesn’t fit in with the Cult of N’uh’s world view. I would have posted the prayer vigils being held for the cheerleader in ICU, the Lunar Lion going to further competition, the new application figures…never mind. Never mind.</p>