Personal Letters from a College-Aged Hillary Clinton

afruff23 · August 1, 2007, 12:45am

@conyat

No, I admit I haven’t since I couldn’t find them. I have however read his opinions on the issue.

@interesteddad
Let me just clarify for other users that Ron Paul is not part of the John Birch Society. That said, he is their candidate of choice because of his constitutional views.

He has nothing to do with the fluorine communist mind control conspiracy. He has simply said that he shares their view on strict constitutional interpretation. Now, will you stop bringing that up when it has nothing to do with anything?

How about we talk some more about your corporate shills? (AKA Hillary and Obama)

Again, let me REITERATE: Prioritize which issues matter more to you for the upcoming election and make sure your favored candidates support your viewpoint.

For instance, did you know that only Paul, Gravel, and Kucinich do not support the Patriot Act?

Did you also know that Hillary and Hillary OPPOSE Gay marriage? Ron Paul believes the issue should be left to the states. At least one of the Northeastern states or California would pass a Gay marriage law for sure.

So it is in your best interest to not vote for Hillary or Obama if you are Gay.

Here’s a list of politicians with more pro-Gay views than Hillary or Obama:

-Dodd (D)
-Gravel (D)
-Kucinich (D)
-Paul (R)
-Thompson (R)

teriwtt · August 1, 2007, 12:46am

A president cannot directly change abortion laws, but he or she can appoint judges who will slide down that slippery slope, so who the president is, is important to me from that regard, as well as his or her approach to foreign policy.

I think the point of dissention here revolves around the word “know”. I think we are all using it in different contexts. There is ‘know’ in the academic sense, meaning how scholarly are you about an issue. And there’s ‘know’ defined in a more experiential context. There are many things that scholars can ‘know’ more about in an academic context, but don’t ‘know’ about it experientially. I’m sure others can come up with lots of examples, but for one - I work for a hospice agency in a clinical capacity. From an academic standpoint, I know a lot about death and dying. But until I am faced with my own terminal diagnosis (granted I don’t suddenly die in an accident), I will never presume to ‘know’ what going through that process is like. Another example, many educators ‘know’ a lot about special education, but ‘know’ much more if they have a child who requires special ed. My point is policy making cannot be done by those with one kind of ‘knowing’. The insinuation above was that those who get pregnant are stupid because they didn’t use protection, so because they are stupid, their voice doesn’t count. So therefore only those who ‘know’ more than anyone else on this forum takes priority.

If I am putting words in someone’s mouth, please clarify, but I will never be convinced that abortion should be made illegal based on one man’s professional experience, as I also believe these same standards should be held to any political issue. Extremists who believe all abortions should be outlawed show no willingness to be engaged in dialogue about the issue of unwanted pregnancies, because obviously they have the only answer.

interesteddad · August 1, 2007, 12:55am

Oh, that’s right. I forgot. Ron Paul is on the “dental fillings are a corporate conspiracy” bandwagon.

It’s so hard to keep all the wingnut conspiracies straight, especially with the sound of those damn black helicopters over my house driving me batty.

higherlead · August 1, 2007, 12:56am

“But it’s obvious, if abortion is a criminal act, the women who chooses it should be penalized”

There is nothing obvious about that. It could be illegal to perform an abortion without it being illegal to have one. It is illegal to leak classified information but not illegal to publish it. It is illegal to sell alcohol to a person under 21 but not illegal for them to buy it.

BTW I am still trying to figure out why an earlier poster thinks men know more about pederasty than women. With all the female middle school and high school teachers going down for having sex with their pupils it doesn’t appear to be an exclusively male activity.

higherlead · August 1, 2007, 1:07am

“I’m more worried about the communist conspiracy behind flouridated water.”

As it turns out fluoride poisoning is way more common than most eople imagine.

Put down your copy of Pravda interesteddad and pass me the rainwater and grain alcohol and I’ll tell you a no lies:-)

<a href=“http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/accidents/acute.html[/url]”>http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/accidents/acute.html</a>

afruff23 · August 1, 2007, 1:08am

@teriwtt
I see what you mean about experience=knowledge which is why I referenced those 2 links in a previous post about how pregnant rape victims often don’t get abortions, yet pro-choice people keep mentioning them as people who need abortions.

“Abortion should be made illegal based on one man’s professional experience, as I also believe these same standards should be held to any political issue.”

That’s how the country was intended to run until the Bush administration exerted its unconstitutional power over other branches. If we go back to our roots, we can have the proper checks and balances so no single entity can determine an entire country’s fate. This is what Ron Paul is advocating: a small, self-checking government.

He’s not like “The Decider”. As far as extremism goes, I hope you’re not referring to Ron Paul. He’s not part of the “Religious Right” (AKA neocons). If he was an extremist, then he would not have voted against the Federal marriage amendment. He has come to his conclusions through his own observations.

I hope you don’t just think that the conservative side to an issue is “extremist”. There are plenty of democrats who will not consider other opinions.

afruff23 · August 1, 2007, 1:13am

@higherlead

Pederasty is a homosexual act between a man and a boy (no females).
<a href=“http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=pederasty[/url]”>http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=pederasty</a>
<a href=“define:pederasty[/url] - Google Search”>define:pederasty - Google Search;

afruff23 · August 1, 2007, 1:28am

@interesteddad

"Oh, that’s right. I forgot. Ron Paul is on the “dental fillings are a corporate conspiracy” bandwagon.

It’s so hard to keep all the wingnut conspiracies straight, especially with the sound of those damn black helicopters over my house driving me batty."

Let me clarify a few things:

If Paul did not run, then I would have supported a democratic candidate. So I don’t lean to either side. I choose a candidate on their individual qualities rather than what animal is their logo (FYI this is anti-Collectivism which Paul firmly supports).

Paul is not part of any conspiracy theories. You are just slandering him and repeating yourself over and over without regarding the facts.

I hope you can understand Paul’s positions and platform before election time. Even if you don’t wind up voting for him, I wouldn’t care. It just matters that you make an informed vote.

As I said before, I am not affiliated with any party. I find it funny that you mention there being tons of wingnut conspiracy theories when there are just as many left-wing conspiracy theories (if not more).

I’ll just name a few:

JFK assassination

Reagan’s pact with Iran

9/11

Capitalists are out to kill poor people

Nuclear energy is evil (more specifically: dangerous)

Please don’t reply and say how so and so theory is true. There are plenty of other websites to discuss these matters.

EDIT: As long as we’re talking about conspiracy theories, why not mention Hillary Clinton?:
<a href=“http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=7461[/url]”>http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=7461</a>

While part of the reasons Clinton was impeached were political (obviously), this hardly constitutes a conspiracy theory.

interesteddad · August 1, 2007, 2:04am

This would be the “anti-Collectivism” that is the foundation of the John Birch Society dogma, correct? The “collectivism” that is a threat to our “Judeo-Christian heritage”, right?

“The beneficial, educational impact of the John Birch Society over the past four decades would be hard to overestimate.”
Congressman Ron Paul of Texas

afruff23 · August 1, 2007, 2:26am

“The “collectivism” that is a threat to our “Judeo-Christian heritage”, right?”

What are you talking about? Is this your own conspiracy theory? Let me just list a few of the points of disagreement Paul has with neocons:

death penalty
gay marriage amendment
No Child Left Behind
Patriot Act
Guantanamo
Torture
Wiretapping
Foreign Policy

He is no neocon.

Oh, wow. Ron Paul said that the JBS has a good educational impact. I don’t think anybody would dispute that fact. Albeit they have some weird conspiracy theories, they do profess very logical and sound arguments on other issues.

Take for example, the 2nd amendment. Run Paul is against gun control just like the JBS. But before you scream “guns kill people”, I’ll tell you “they sure do”. But if everybody had guns, then not as many people would be dying since everybody can defend themselves.

Imagine if guns were allowed on airplanes. At first, common sense says that’s crazy. But careful thought reveals that 9/11 could have been prevented if guns were not banned from planes. On a packed flight, a few civilians would have guns and be able to kill the hijackers before the planes hit anything.

So do you see how Paul can remark that the JBS can educate people about the issues?

interesteddad · August 1, 2007, 2:36am

From:

<a href=“http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/jbs.html[/url]”>http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/jbs.html</a>

"[Birch Society Founder]Welch saw collectivism as the main threat to western civilization, writing “both the Greek and the Roman civilizations did perish of the cancer of collectivism, and the civilization of Western Europe is doing so today.” This view was shared by many conservatives of the day, and had been developed by such conservative intellectuals as Hayek. The ingredient that Welch added was an “uncompromising conspiracy theory of world events, one that blamed domestic rather than foreign enemies for the spread of communism,” as Diamond summarized. Although critical of Oswald Spengler’s intellectual snobbery, Welch agreed with Spengler’s thesis in Decline of the West, of a “cyclical theory of cultures,” but Welch argued that western European civilization was being prematurely put at risk by a conspiracy to promote the decay of collectivism.

According to the JBS theory, liberals provide the cover for the gradual process of collectivism, therefore many liberals and their allies must actually be secret communist traitors whose ultimate goal is to replace the nations of western civilization with one-world socialist government. “There are many stages of` welfarism, socialism, and collectivism in general,” wrote Welch, “but communism is the ultimate state of them all, and they all lead inevitably in that direction.” A core tenet of the JBS was that the US is a republic not a democracy, and that collectivism has eroded that distinction. That this distinction was largely a semantic trick–used to cover the essential autocratic elitism of Welch and the JBS philosoph–was examined by Lester DeKoster, a conservative Christian who warned of the JBS anti-democratic agenda in his monograph titled The Citizen and the John Birch Society.

The JBS concern that collectivism, statism, and internationalism would be ushered in through a subversive communist conspiracy naturally evolved into the JBS “Get US out of UN!” campaign, which alleged in 1959 that the “Real nature of [the] UN is to build One World Government (New World Order).” Behind much of this concern was opposition to communism not only on economic, ideological, and pragmatic geopolitical grounds, but also because it was seen as a godless conspiracy. The influence of fundamentalist Christian beliefs on Birch doctrine are often obscured by the group’s ostensible secular orientation. As Welch put it, “This is a world-wide battle, between light and darkness; between freedom and slavery; between the spirit of Christianity and the spirit of anti-Christ for the souls and bodies of men.” "

Yeah. Just like David Koresh.

afruff23 · August 1, 2007, 2:56am

Let me explain to you a few things about logic:

You committed a fallacy. Here’s how you went wrong. The following is illogical:

If A, then B
If C, then B
Therefore if A, then C

In this case, replace A with Ron Paul, B with anti-Collectivism, and C with JBS.

I’ll make up an example to show you just how absurd this notion is.

You breathe air.
Terrorists breathe air.
Therefore, you are a terrorist.

interesteddad · August 1, 2007, 3:44am

There are few non-wingnut Americans who would agree that the John Birch Society has had ANY beneficial impact since the 1960s.

For example, the John Birch Society accused Dwight Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer. The John Birch Society joined with notable racists like George Wallace in opposing civil rights. And, yet your candidate, Ron Paul says it would be impossible to overestimate the beneficial educational impact of the John Birch Society.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it’s a duck…even if some political supporter swears up and down it’s not a duck.

merrymom · August 1, 2007, 8:35am

Just what I want. A cowboy on my airplane with a gun trying to save me from terrorists with bombs and gun. I’d say bombs/grenades trump guns. Or do I have to use a logical fallacy format to explain it?

tommybill · August 1, 2007, 9:25am

I have met with, and talked to Congressman Ron Paul on several occasions; he is an intelligent and articulate man, he is also a threat to a free society. His beliefs are very dangerous, and while he has the right to express these dangerous beliefs, freedom loving people should oppose him and the policies he suggests at every opportunity. He and his ideas are dangerous to our country and its people.

merrymom · August 1, 2007, 9:31am

To those unfamiliar with Ron Paul, he has multiple videos espousing his politics on Utube.

JHS · August 1, 2007, 9:57am

I will admit to not having paid a whole lot of attention to Ron Paul.

Sorry, afruff23, but I sure will. Ron Paul’s favorable comment on Birch’s “educational impact”, even if it was an isolated instance and not repeated, puts him way over the edge for me. Your defense of it puts you there, too. I can think of a few organizations more poisonous than the John Birch Society, but not many.

tommybill · August 1, 2007, 11:21am

see today’s WSJ poll

<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118593574230084340.html[/url]”>http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118593574230084340.html</a>

mini · August 1, 2007, 11:40am

“I have met with, and talked to Congressman Ron Paul on several occasions; he is an intelligent and articulate man, he is also a threat to a free society. His beliefs are very dangerous, and while he has the right to express these dangerous beliefs, freedom loving people should oppose him and the policies he suggests at every opportunity.”

Funny. That’s exactly how I describe Bill Clinton - from Iraq, to NAFTA, to Globalization, to neo-liberal economics generally speaking and its contribution to global warming/global pollution, to the Big Lie of 1998.

drb · August 1, 2007, 11:50am

^ok, we get it.

Personal Letters from a College-Aged Hillary Clinton

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