Persuasion and A Civil Contract - April CC Book Club Selection

Yes, no problem finding discussion questions for Jane Austen!

I also couldn’t find questions for A Civil Contract but did find a very interesting in depth analysis of the book which gave me a lot of insight. I particularly like (a) the quotes from Austen’s letters about the book and (b) pointing out the historical context. Heyer has several books which are essentially mostly history - I don’t care for those but this book wasn’t too bad on Napoleonic war discussion. It was integral to the plot.

I appreciated Persuasion more in this reading than several years ago but as with others, Pride and Prejudice remains favorite. I also found more to unravel in Contract than in any other reading (I reread Heyer books like people like to listen to favorite albums). Certainly Adam’s character seemed less likable this time around. I never much liked Julia.

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A few more thoughts while they’re fresh.

I’m glad we read these books together because they have several similar themes, even if they play out differently.

  • Two young lovers who pledge their troth but cannot (initially) marry because the man doesn’t have the wealth to support the woman.
  • Two fathers (both viscounts, I believe) who squander the wealth of their estates and in doing so, wildly disrupt the lives of their children.
  • Two stories where the “upper class” disdains the “lower class” because the accumulation of wealth allows a mixing of classes.
  • Two stories with flighty young women who are excused their behavior because of looks and charm.

Off to breakfast (not tea and toast).

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Some random thought that I am just throwing out. I saw so many references to Sense vs sensibility in A Civil Contract, including the fact that Jenny had recently read it, that I wondered if we shouldn’t have made Sense and Sensibility the Austen pair. Julia is clearly all sensibility and Jenny mostly sense, while Adam learns to become more sensible.

I was struck by how Adam and Jenny spoke different love languages. I am not sure that Adam ever really realizes how much Jenny loves him. He knows she takes care of him, and he appreciates it, but I feel like he’s still missing that piece even at the end. While I like Adam, I still occasionally want to kick him in the shins and to tell him to grow up already. I also am a little dismayed that Jenny is such a perfect little housewife. (Probably period appropriate, though of course there were some famous women who ignore society’s strictures. They were considered pretty scandalous however, something Jenny could not afford to be.)

I haven’t totally finished rereading Persuasion (but I reread it in October so I remember it pretty well), but I found it interesting to compare Austen’s irritating minor characters with Georgette Heyer’s. Both authors use this device often, but at least in this book, for the most part, the characters in A Civil Contract are given redeeming features. Adam’s mother is a silly hypochondriac, but she turns out to be wonderful when Jenny is pregnant. Lydia is very silly at the start of the book, but ends up being the one person who really enjoys Jenny’s father. And Jenny’s father is just wonderful. So annoying, but so good at heart. In Persuasion I find it hard to find any redeeming features in Anne’s father or any of her sisters and the villains are all pretty black.

Marquis of Rockhill is for me a most amusing character. I am not quite sure what he sees in Julia (though she is very good with his children), but he knows exactly how to approach her. I have hopes that Julia will eventually grow up thanks to his influence, but it will be a while!

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I enjoyed reading both books again. Every reading brings up things that I didn’t catch the time before.
That being said, Persuasion ranked with Pride & Prejudice as Austen’s best effort until this reading. I still like the story, the descriptions, and even some of the characters, but after this reading I felt that P&P is the superior book. I enjoy sparkling dialogue, repartees and light commentary more than descriptive narratives. Persuasion is an excellent book, a great story but with humdrum characters.

Elizabeth Bennet is a more lively and entertaining heroine than Anne. Austen shows her characters well with dialogue and that part was missing a bit with Anne.
Anne is intelligent, discerning, faithful, a dutiful sister and daughter, and a true friend. She still comes up short in comparison with Elizabeth Bennet.

Captain Wentworth is a hero without strong defining characteristics. There wasn’t that much more to him that made him stand out from say Charles Musgrave or Captain Benwick as a suitor for Anne. A good man, he still lets hurt pride dictate his behavior when meeting with Anne after seven years. It also leads him into misleading Louisa and all her relatives about his intentions.
The other characters were fleshed out well. Mary and Elizabeth are superficial, selfish women who don’t appreciate Anne’s sterling qualities. Sir Walter is a completely self absorbed man who gives more importance to outward beauty and fails to understand the needs of his daughters.
I enjoyed the characterization of Mr. Elliott the most. He is a more successful villain than Wickham and more ruthless in his dealings with the Elliott family. It was also interesting to note that of his two cousins he preferred Anne. He was able to discern Anne’s more subtle merits over Elizabeth’s obvious and superficial ones.

A civil contract isn’t my favorite book by Heyer. There are layers to the book, though, that make it a good book. Adam Deveril is a man with failings, a man trying to overcome the hand he has been dealt with dignity, fighting his love for the divine Julia and the occasional revulsion he feels for his commonplace wife, Jenny, while rebuilding his life around land and farm having had to give up the army.

He is repelled by the character of his father-in-law but manages to keep it in check most of the time. He is no gambler like his father yet gambles everything he has on Wellington’s army’s victory over Napoleon. That passion makes him forget everything including his obligations to his family on the day of his sister’s engagement party. He is fallible and boring at times.

Jenny is a comfortable woman, who doesn’t set her sights too high in life but fate (and her father) grants her the man she had loved from afar but never thought to marry. She doesn’t inspire any passion in Adam. He is content to live the rest of his life with her and their children. He appreciates Jenny more as he realizes Julia’s true nature but romantic love wasn’t part of it.

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I enjoyed both books. I had not read Persuasion in the past and really enjoyed it. It was definitely my preferred of the two books. There was a lot of the same in the two books as @Marilyn mentioned above. The timeline and snotty characters left me remembering some of the characters in the wrong books when reflecting. I watched the movie Persuasion yesterday and that helped bring everything back to order. :blush:

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As a side note, Georgette Heyer referenced characters reading Sense and Sensibility in several of her books, noting that the author was anonymous at the time.

Adam exhibits both pride and prejudice, and I don’t think he ever really grows out of either. He does temper his prejudice when Chawleigh no longer has financial control over him, and he realizes that Jenny gave him both an heir and an improved comfortable home. He realizes that he does not have to compromise his internal standards. But he doesn’t really lower these standards unless saying that his FIL will always be welcome in his home is such. His pride throughout the book is the overwhelming emotion that controls his actions.

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I watched both the 1995 “Persuasion” (Amanda Root / Ciaran Hinds) and the 2007 version (Sally Hawkins / Rupert Penry-Jones). It’s a tough job to prepare for these book discussions, but I had to do my duty. :joy:

I thought the 1995 version was far superior – better acting across the board, better chemistry between the leads.

Yes, the annoying women in Persuasion are broadly drawn and fit the Austen mold. Mary could be a young Mrs. Bennett. I think the villainous men in P&P and Persuasion are more complex. I find both Wickham and Mr. Elliott intriguing – ruthless, but also intelligent and skillful at reading people.

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Yes, Anne and Wentworth aren’t fleshed out that much. In the movie she was made to appear very Cinderella-like. She was neglected and imposed upon at will by her sisters and father. Neither she nor Wentworth had much dialog and it took some time for each of them to “feel each other out” and determine they still cared about one another.

I do hope that Adam grows up and learns to fully love Jenny as she so richly deserves. Adam is rather superficial and foolish but I do believe he is capable of learning to love. I do believe the Marquis will improve Julia, but it will take time. Jenny is a very good person, as is her dad.

I think Adam was in love with the IDEA of Julia but not the drama and coddling it would take and definitely he doesn’t have the skills to de-escalate her hysterics.

These books do make you wonder how many “great families” were ruined by profligate heads.

It’s a pity Mrs Clay couldn’t find a nice suitable match as she was still young and attractive and ended up mistress to the evil villain, Mr Elliot in the end.

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Some general thoughts . . . not yet responding to specific prompts

I have always loved Persuasion, and it is my second favorite Austen novel, only slightly behind P&P. I actually particularly love Anne. No, we don’t get to know her through witty dialogue, like Elizabeth, but she shows her character in her actions. Between the two, Elizabeth is more charming, but Anne really is more admirable. Austen sets up contrasts between Anne and her sisters that put Anne in a very flattering light. Elizabeth is consumed with materialism, and Anne is modest and practical. Mary is self-indulgent and an uncaring mother, while Anne stays behind to care for Mary’s children. Anne has a cool head in a crises. Anne cares for others.

Anne also takes actions that, to our moderns sensibility seem inconsequential, but would have been considered bold in Regency England. While in Bath, Anne steps away from her family to say hello to Wentworth and catch his attention. It appears that she deliberately speaks of women loving the longest when hope is gone within Wentworth’s earshot, making her feelings known in a society where women generally cannot speak up.

Persuasion was written near the end of Austen’s life, and is generally a more pessimistic novel than P&P, thus the many characters with no redeeming qualities. Love wins out for Anne and the Captain, but the other pairings are not so happy.

I found A Civil Contract to be an entertaining read, but I can’t say I really liked it. To me, all of the characters were a bit flat and stereotypical. It felt like it was trying to replicate Austen, but it all seemed so very predictable. Did anyone ever doubt that Adam and Jenny would grow to love each other, he would retrieve his fortune, he would realize Jenny makes him happier than Julia ever could have, and Jenny would fare well in society? And yet, is any of that really realistic? I think I may have liked it better had I not been comparing it to one of my favorite books of all time.

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Just for fun, covers from my old copies of the books. I particularly like the Tennyson quote on the back cover blurb of Persuasion. I think the cover of A Civil Contract is very misleading and I’m pretty sure I saw that scene in the movie version of Persuasion.

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Mine is quite nice. Sourcebooks Casablanca put out nice editions of all the Georgette Heyer’s around 2011. I remember being really tempted to replace all of mine. It’s better quality paper too.

The book I bought on ebay is the bottom one. It’s in good condition with only a bit of highlighting and a few marks. I can’t recall anything in book where Anne and the Capt are lounging in the grass at any point in the novel.

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@Marilyn, I love the Tennyson quote!

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By the way you can’t see the exact spot where Lydia would have fallen because the Cobb has been rebuilt in 1820, but it’s probably very similar. Lyme Regis - Wikipedia

The area is fascinating. Only a small part of the beach protected by the Cobb is sand (which they vacuum every morning as it collects seaweed). Most of the beach is fairly large round stones, many of which contain fossils. The cliffs along this whole section of coast (known as the Jurassic Coast) are prone to “land slips” and are also full of fossils. It’s a gorgeous area. We hiked a portion of the Southwest Coastal path last fall.

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I checked out the @mathmom version of A Civil Contract from Hoopla. Here’s my own copy of Persuasion:

Yes, in the Dakota Johnson version of Persuasion, there’s a flashback of Captain Wentworth and Anne in their courtship days that’s much like that cover of A Civil Contract. Below is a screen shot. (Okay, I admit it, I watched all three film versions of Persuasion.)

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Thanks – I do miss Elizabeth’s sparkle, but this makes me better appreciate Anne. Sometimes, she comes across as mousy (at least on screen), but I think she is simply reserved and not the sort to engage in witty repartée.

Another way Anne exerts her independence is by foregoing an invitation from Lady Dalrymple in order to visit Mrs. Smith, despite her father and older sister’s astonished disapproval.

Sir Elliot’s comment in that scene did give me a chuckle:

"But surely you may put off this old lady till to-morrow: she is not so near her end, I presume, but that she may hope to see another day. What is her age? Forty?”

In fact, Mrs. Smith is only 30 – but basically still considered an aged widow past her prime. Depressing life expectancy in that era (age 41 in 1815): United Kingdom: life expectancy 1765-2020 | Statista

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I enjoyed Persuasion through most of the book but do agree with others that Captain Wentworth was not given a fully developed character. The short relationship almost seems one of propinquity; they certainly had a lot of characteristics to work with though!

He was, at that time, a remarkably fine young man, with a great deal of intelligence, spirit and brilliancy; and Anne an extremely pretty girl, with gentleness, modesty, taste, and feeling. - Half the sum of attraction, on either side, might have been enough, for he had nothing to do, and she had hardly any body to love.

We live with Anne throughout the book and understand why she would be lovable, but not really much of Frederick. Her empty life can explain why she clings to the memory of love. But they don’t really build that up again so I do have some trouble understanding why Frederick rekindled his feeling love so easily. Well, not easily per se, but without much to go on until near the end.

There are a lot of similarities to P&P - the surprise letter, the Lady Catherine de Bourgh equivalent, etc. But I do not see similarities between Mary and Mrs. Bennet, other than the invalidism. Mrs. Bennet was silly but very much loved her daughters and her every move was designed to ensure their futures. To some extent, Mr. Bennet was no better than Sir William in letting his personal pleasures preclude proper preparation. Mary Elliott Musgrove was totally self centered and cared little for her sons. It must have been hard, though, to know that she was her husband’s second choice after her sister.

I enjoyed all the character developments and locales up until about the last quarter of the book. Then seemingly out of the blue is a 15 page exposition of the wicked Mr. Elliott. All Anne had was a vague unsubstantiated feeling that something was not right about him. Then Mrs. Smith lets it all out in one long dissertation including letters. As I was reading that section I was thinking show, don’t tell. It took me out of the flow of the narrative.

I also did not see Frederick suffering under the impact of the love bomb hitting him enough to write that note. Their clarifying walk was covered in one page! And then some history of how he almost accidentally got engaged to Louisa!

The last thing that bothered me about the book (that I really did like) was where Anne says that she was correct to be persuaded by Mrs. Russell to give up Frederick eight years prior, but that Mrs. Russell erred in giving that advice. Seems like kind of an easy out - not my fault, my sense of duty gives me nothing which which to reproach myself. Even though it was the wrong decision. Not to mention Mrs. Russell encouraging Anne to Mr. Elliott - along with almost everyone else! Let’s blame it all on Mrs. Russell! Love this quote,

There was nothing less for Mrs. Russell to do, than to admit she had been pretty completely wrong, and to take up a new set of opinions and hopes.

Oh - have we all forgotten poor Mrs. Clay, whose only crime was befriending the daughter of a widower and trying to finagle him into a marriage? Then being seduced by a scoundrel?

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Persuasion has always been my favorite Austen novel. It’s an adult love story - someone who has accepted she has lost the love of her life and may never find love again and then the vindication of realizing the beloved still loves and desires you. Everyone blames Anne for the original break-up (for lack of a better term) and indeed, she is the one who precipitates the break, but it’s always been unclear to me if Frederick really fought for her - he takes his wounded pride away and never writes her or tries to contact her again or anything. He’s too proud. And she has to (?) suffer in silence - or maybe she simply is afraid to hope - until he finally realizes he still loves her. It’s not just the 8 years they are apart, but the year they are thrown into each other’s company never knowing what the other is thinking. The Mr. Elliot plotline is a bit odd - is it to balance out the Louisa Musgrove misunderstanding on the other side? Is it just to make Capt. Wentworth jealous enough to realize he must try again to win Anne? Is it just that the novel needed a villain? Or is it just a way to show Anne’s clear superiority to her sister? Unclear to me, but it’s true that that plot line does not work as well as the rest of the book. But I find the end of Persuasion very satisfying, and I suspect others who have found love late in life or had a lost love return feel the same way. I love P&P, and S&S (I actually prefer S&S to P&P, and would probably tie Emma with P&P for third for me) but I’ve never really seen the appeal of Darcy - I know he goes and saves the day when Lydia elopes, and that’s great, but otherwise he’s kind of a jerk for most of the book. And Lizzie Bennet certainly has spunk, and I’d probably rather spend a day with her high spirits, but Anne is a deeper, more thoughtful person. In any case, Persuasion is one of my comfort reads - I listen to it or read it every couple of years (though I’ve never watched the movies!) while I can go years without picking P&P back up.

Meanwhile, I read A Civil Contract in a couple of days for this book group. I liked it well enough, but certainly didn’t love it. In ACC the protagonist actually follows the advice of his elders, and we are led to believe that this not only saves his fortune/family, but also leads him into the better marriage in the long run. Passion runs its course, but Jenny is truly his soulmate? Those persuading him to give up passion for sense are proven correct. In Persuasion the exact opposite is the lesson - that Anne should never have been persuaded to give up her true love, and only because the stars align in the future is she given another chance at it. So which is right? We, of course, never get to see Anne & Frederick actually married, but the implication is they will be very happy :slight_smile:

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Sorry that was meant as a general reply, not just to Marilyn

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