<p>1989 O-3 salary: 2,439.00 per month = 29,268 per year
1989 Associate Sales and Trading at NYC IB (salary plus bonus) = 282,000
Multiple = 9.63</p>
<p>I mention family service to give crediblity to the source (immediate family members). This was our experience: an officer at a full time masters program. And then back at SOSH at WP.<br>
Good night all.</p>
<p>When H was in grad school, there were half a dozen military grad students. They are a boon to universities because they increase numbers and the university receives full funding for them. The majority of the ones who were with him, in a top ranked university, were known for not being the brightest bulbs in the room.</p>
<p>Being out of practice hurts. I doubt I could rattle off a great paper in an evening now, compared to how I could when I was in college. Although, I can definitely employ an aircraft better now!</p>
<p>Collecting related degrees is an interesting hobby …</p>
<p>The level of nepotism in the military at top ranks is also impressive. Petraeus married the boss’ daughter, Allen appears to be the son of a USAF general. In that sense, maybe quite similar to private business.</p>
<p>" There is a difference between commanding people who are duty bound to obey you on pain of death or imprisonment, and leading people who are comparatively free to disregard your wishes."</p>
<p>You’ve seen too many movies about maniacal military leaders. The “I’ll throw you in the brig to rot” approach isn’t the way things get done 99.99% of the time.</p>
<p>" There is a difference between commanding people who are duty bound to obey you on pain of death or imprisonment, and leading people who are comparatively free to disregard your wishes."</p>
<p>There is also a big difference between commanding people when the job has real consequence. If something goes wrong in corporate America there can be missed earnings for a quarter. In the military, people can die.</p>
<p>I’ve gone directly from managing a group of people professionally to “managing” a volunteer operation. Although the leadership skills involve do translate, it is MUCH more difficult to recruit and manage volunteers effectively and get stuff done. The less power you have over their fate, the more difficult it is. To deny that the military has more power over its members than a private company has over its employees seems pretty silly to me. This is not to say that leadership in the military is easy, either.</p>
<p>Obviously, the stakes are higher in war. That was not my point. </p>
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<p>A comparison that assumes that the military officer would be able to get and keep the IB job, something that is highly unlikely. Very, very few people get those jobs. The top 2% of incomes in the US today are at $250K and up. It is highly unlikely that the vast majority of military officers would be in that 2% if they had entered civilian life instead. Using their military experience, some MAY be able to cash in on the military industrial complex lobbyist/consultant scene and make big $$. But I doubt that is true for most serving officers. </p>
<p>I have no doubt that many, if not most of them could make higher wages in civilian life, even when you factor in housing and access to significantly cheaper goods at the PX. I just think that saying they are likely to make 10 times as much is, indeed, hyperbole. This is not to denigrate them in any way.</p>
<p>Managing people in the military is also done without being able to reward them with raises, bonuses, or promotions. Also, very difficult to demote or “fire” them. And disgruntled subordinates can easily cause major headaches for superiors by intentionally losing a classified document or complaining to their congressman (never mind the fatal opportunities in the heat of battle).</p>
<p>Also, the PX prices aren’t “significantly” lower, and because of the frequent moves, military people generally don’t have the opportunity to buy a house and keep it long enough to make any money off of it.</p>
<p>Given the events of the last few years, this is just a tad ironic…free housing, however, unexciting, works out to a hugely better deal than an underwater mortgage. :)</p>
<p>PX prices aren’t “significantly” lower? Then things must have changed a lot. When I last had the opportunity to go with someone to shop for food in a PX–his father was retired career military–the prices were well under half of those in regular supermarkets. (Admittedly this was decades ago.) And when they decided to close the PX in our area because the military base was closed, there was a big outcry from the retired military people who shopped there. Apparently they perceived it as a very good deal.</p>
<p>Please understand that I do not begrudge this at all. I think the military is disgracefully underpaid. Many military families qualify for food stamps. I’d like to see that changed, rather than the chest-thumping pseudo-patriotism we see all too much of.</p>
<p>I went shopping with S1 at the Naval Exchange (not groceries) last summer. It was a large two level store that reminded me of Kohl’s, Sears or JC Penney. The prices were competitive but not super low certainly not half price. The biggest perk of shopping at the military exchanges is that the items bought are tax free.</p>
<p>“Free housing” is not a given. There’s not enough housing on most bases…long wait lists…esp. for family housing. </p>
<p>Some bases don’t have enough housing for single enlisted personnnel either. S1 knows of young single sailors who couldn’t get base housing so they live on the ship even when not deployed…six guys stacked up like cordwood in a space the size of a bathroom.<br>
Being married gets them a bump up in pay/BAH (basic housing allowance). S1 was in a class of about 25 for dive school. A handful of of the younger guys got married within six weeks.</p>
<p>Most officers who serve close to 20 years get a master’s degree on the government’s dime. It is almost a requirement for promotion to colonel. There are many different paths. Often officers complete a master’s degree at the same time as they attend another school for officers like the Command and General Staff College ( at the rank of major) or a War College ( at the rank of lt. Colonel). Colleges often give credit for the work officers have done during the military coursework, which would explain the post above with the multiple, but related degrees. </p>
<p>As far as costs at the PX and commissary, the PX is comparable to the discount stores as far as prices. You do not pay tax. Selection is very limited in all but the huge base stores. The commissary (grocery) is priced at cost and we pay a 5 percent surcharge and tip those who pack our groceries. We pay less overall, but sale prices beat commissary prices. Again, selection is limited. It is a 25-minute drive for me to get on post.</p>
<p>For housing, when there is not on-post housing, officers get a housing allowance that just about pays the mortgage on a modest house near base. It is set based on cost of living for the area. If a family buys off post, they are on their own when it comes time to sell. We moved nine times the first 13 years we were married.</p>
<p>My husband is a classmate of Petraeus, though not a friend. Don’t ever think that schooling is handed to any officer without pay back. If it does happen, it is the exception, not the rule. The life of a career officer is not a cake walk. It is full of sacrifices civilians will never know.</p>
<p>My extensive firsthand experiences with on-base shopping (PX, BX, commissaries) were in tune with PackMom’s, above. The prices were good, not great, and could almost always be beaten if you looked for a sale at a civilian store. Plus, the variety is pretty limited. You want a food that’s a little unusual, or need clothes that are not a standard size, too bad. The lack of sales tax is nice, but even with that benefit, it’s hard to imagine anybody’s financial situation being noticeably (much less significantly) better because of the on-base stores.</p>
<p>Looking at the 1989 figures, comparing an O-3 (whatever that is) to an investment banker is a bit idiotic, investment bankers come out of grad programs and even UG making well into 6 figures, did even in the mid 1990’s when my wife worked for one as a support accountant. </p>
<p>If an O-3 had 5 years experience or so, then I can talk a comparable white collar position. In tech or engineering at the time, 29k would be a bit low in the NYC area, but it wouldn’t be unthinkable that someone with a CS degree could be making that with 5 years experience. I made a little more then 10k a year more then that, but I was working in the financial industry on trading sytems development, had worked at the NYSE for 4 years which was valuable experience, plus I was working in NYC…I would guess 29k would be a bit low for a tech person, but on average, not that much, for typical years experience…and if you were talking someone with a liberal arts degree or the like, working in an office, that would have been in range of a typical office job. </p>
<p>If you are going to compare an IB job, it would probably be better to do so with someone who had achieved a relatively high rank, maybe in the colonel range, though obviously if I Understand the military, few if any would achieve any kind of rank like that in 5 years…my point being that IB is rarified air, as is let’s say a colonel…</p>
<p>As far as paying for an education, there is very good reason for that, the hardened, field maverick officer of the past in the world we are in is not necessarily the best person for the job. Petraeus was known for literally writing the book on handling insurgency after war, like we faced in Iraq, and it takes someone with advanced training to be able to come up with things like that. Besides giving inducement to have people serve in the military and gain needed skills, it also keeps us from having a military that is monolithic, that thinks in only one way…unless you want a military full of William Calleys, it is a wise investment in a military able to handle things never seen before.</p>
<p>For junior officers, the pay is similar to a tad less than a new engineer, I’d say. A lot depends on where they are assigned. Depending on the local cost of living, BAH for an O-1 living off base can vary by up to $1000/mo. Granted, the standard of living should end up about the same.
I haven’t found the prices at the commissary or bx to be that different than Walmart. </p>
<p>Masters degrees are important enough in promotions that I have people telling me to start, and I just finished my initial qualification training!</p>