Yes, you’re right! The rat being infected then biting the researcher is why it transmitted the virus to humans. So animals CAN be infected, they just don’t join the hive. They just.. carry the virus?
(Do they mutate?)
It looks like they reproduce by finding new hosts. So at some point the infected humans will no longer have any food and will die off?
Will they expect Koumba to reproduce with one of his sex slaves - can he do that?
Their human reproduction pattern seems to be kissing - except Carol rightly takes it as form of sexual assault, one more shock in an hour chock full of them (the 00H59->1H00 countdown at the end of episode 1 was devastating to me: it took just one hour for all that horror to unfold😭)
The we-virus don’t understand the pet/human relationship but they take care of the dog that won’t leave its owner. Otherwise they’ll just.. let the pets be killed?
I’m not sure they “care” about Carol per se. Imho Helen watching Carol’s alcohol intake was more “caring” than providing her with anything she wants.
Therefore I’m not sure they “know”, what that means. At several points, they seem genuinely surprised something they intended as a positive is received badly. For having all the knowledge in the world they still don’t understand humans (or that one specific human).
This broaches the matter of consent.
I had assumed they’d picked the lesbian/bi woman that most resembled Raban among those still living, added a wig to her, and made her connect to Carol. That is, I assumed the hive wouldn’t “make” Zosia hook up with Carol against her own consent. But what if there’s no consent in their consciousness? The way they treat consent in “you can’t make me join without my consent” is evil (in our terms).
The other side of the coin is whether Carol can make the individual inside Zosia reveal herself and leave the hive for a while.
Asimov’s laws initially entailed three guidelines for machines:
Law One – “A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.”
Law Two – “A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.”
Law Three – “A robot must protect its own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.”
Asimov later added the “Zeroth Law,” above all the others – “A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.”
The show seemingly is following these guidelines. At least the first three. They aren’t robots but now have one collective mind. Carol needs to give consent because she is still human–they can’t harm her and whatever she says they treat as an order. But as an infected hive mind they do whatever is needed to keep Carol happy–the individual no longer exists so the concept of “consent” no longer exists either. (I think.)
Edit: Now that I think about it maybe the “Zeroth Law” applies. If everyone comes into the hive mind then no human can be harmed.
Thank you!
I had forgotten these laws.
Very interesting.
Well need to apply to the show. How does it work or not?
However they don’t always apply: how can they harvest Carol’s eggs without her consent, after telling her they’d need her consent to “fix” her or collect her DNA? They don’t treat what she says as an order unless it’s something she wants them to do. But not if it’s something she doesn’t want them to do?
They often seem to skirt the truth or straight up lie.
Also, what do you think of the concept of “chaperones”?
They’re really like custodians or guardians, aren’t they? Even if they obey their “immune human”.
The littles boy keeps tabs on his mother Laxmi, the harem keeps tabs on Koumba.. Zosia on Carol? Only Manousos doesn’t have a “chaperone” - is it why they don’t know much about him? Zosia was embarrassed and couldn’t answer much “because they’re not in contact” but they’d have all the knowledge in the hive about him, no need for much else, right?
Is there an individual in Zosia or is she JUST a hive-product?
They aren’t harvesting her eggs. They were frozen beforehand so she and Helen could have children. The hive mind is using them for DNA. They don’t see it as harming Carol directly.
They were keeping tabs on her but she could also send them away.
They don’t directly know anything about anyone who is not infected. The only info they have about Carol is from Helen’s memories of her which only spans the time up to her death. That is why they need to keep tabs on her. As long as she keeps her mouth shut and works in secret the hive won’t know what she’s up to. Same with Manousos–and he was basically a hermit so even his neighbors really didn’t know much about him.
The hive also isn’t creative and doesn’t seem to be able to put pieces together to guess a future outcome despite the collective knowledge. Although humans understand sarcasm, hyperbole etc. that ability is lost on the hive.
[quote=“MYOS1634, post:23, topic:3699405”]
Is there an individual in Zosia or is she JUST a hive-product?
[/quote]’
Good question. Is this infection something one can recover from if you isolate long enough? Zosia has been isolated off and on with Carol for some time and once in awhile seems to have a spark. Everyone else it appears lives in close quarter groups.
Law 3-- They are protecting their own existence but not directly harming Carol.
She can’t really tell them to stop eating their “food source”. They removed all her neighbors–and she can’t order them back. She can’t order the spy drones out of sky. And it’s questionable if the eggs directly belong to her or if they were also given to Helen at some point.
I meant harvesting the frozen eggs, or doing whatever it is they’re doing with them, surely DNA tests etc, to “fix” Carol against her explicit wishes.
The Hive can’t lie per se but as time goes all these bad people inside them must give them advice on how to evade truth or say just what they want to say. There’s an evolution to the answers they don’t want to give - at first they provide long explanatory answers and at the end it’s brief or clearly not complete.
I wonder how Carol will handle this. She’s traumatized from the 40 days in absolute solitude they tortured her with, however they justified it it was worse than solitary confinement for human connection (where there is at least a guard bringing food) and caused her harm.
She chose saving the world at the end but is she giving up Zosia?
I thought she had removed the spy drone, was it a lie, or one of those “well you DID say to remove it but didn’t specify for how long so we brought it back” type of lie?
I don’t think she wants the neighbors back
That’s an interesting idea! I know they’re in the Writers room right now and they must have mentioned the eggs for a reason.
Someone noted that when in their communal sleeping arrangement ALL the hive sleep the same way, on their (left?) side. And when we see Zosia waking up in that bed Carol finally returned to after sleeping on the couch/in the car/on the floor for 2 months, she’s facing the opposite way.
I don’t understand why the remaining 12 are so important. If the hive had just ignored them, they never would have been aware of each other and would have all probably gone crazy, died from starvation or suicide, or some other rather unsavory situation. But instead the hive spends enormous resources catering to their every whim and keeping up the charade that life is somewhat normal. As we saw with Kusimaya once they change over the charade is completely stopped. Why bother with the charade at all? Is it essential that every last person join the hive?
Yup that’s my question: did she, really?
(IOW do you all really think Zosia is gone?)
Good point ! Will each “chaperone” start trying to make them join?
Is it part of their biological imperative? Or is it like an unplanned, vexing problem? Or are they taking measures similar to Carol’s eggs, looking for ways to figure out how to “fix them”?
I just rewatched the scenes in Ep2 and it looks like it’s anger indeed but it has to be directed at one of them - I haven’t checked Ep9 to see what Manousos does (deliberately I think).
So by withdrawing their presence they protect themselves but also control Carol and her one weapon against them - the punishment and control aspect is highlighted by the enforced 40 days in isolation.
But to be angry, and rightfully so, with no outlet? To know your anger can kill?
Is Carol trying to not kill them because she hopes to reverse the process and save as many of them as possible? She hates them with the intensity of a thousand Suns but on that first day after Helen’s death she still tries to save the people whose bodies they’ve captured (like the guy dangling).
For all the knowledge of 7 billions people the Others have zero emotional understanding - like not realizing the TGIF Friday pilot would be a problem, or telling a grieving widow the day her wife died was the happiest day.
I rewatched it.
First, the question “Why?” Why save the world as it’s become? As Koumba says, no crime no war no racism.
Carol is taken aback: aren’t people supposed to want to save the world?
But thinking about it, perhaps their motivation isn’t world peace.
I hope we get some sort of flashback episode where we learn more about them before - but perhaps their motivations are more basic: Koumba’s situation has improved tremendously: as a bon vivant, he has his favorite foods, a harem, AF1, the penthouse suite, anything he wants. We don’t know if he lost loved ones in the Joining and how he’s been affected but from what info we do have he doesn’t have any reason to want to return to a pre-Joining situation. And maybe he’ll tire of rigged games etc but that early he must be ecstatic.
(Fun fact: I set the French subtitles this time around and learned “s.o to peel your grapes” is “s.o to butter your baguette slices” in French “beurrer tes tartines”).
Everyone else still has family members. It’s only 2 days after the joining so they’re not in mourning, they’re in denial, and having pretend-alive wife, pretend-alive son, pretend-alive mother… May be a coping mechanism. They can’t hear that their loved ones are dead. And they may not be, since their memories still exist within the Hive and they can continue being actors close to the OG individuals. And, really, ARE THEY? Since their memories still live through them?
Also, 886 million people have died to reach world peace?
How is that even acceptable?
Then again Carol herself has killed 11 million people.
But officially they’re not really dead since they’re inside the Hive.
Which sounds a bit religious. Like, your body is dead but your soul lives.
But still you’re dead and others mourn you.
Is joining like committing suicide?
The decisions don’t have to make sense. It’s a plot device to make the story more interesting, and it is successful in doing so. It may be inspired by Asimov’s 3 Laws of Robotics, which are repeated below. Ignoring the 12 remaining humans would violate the first law of robotics. Ignoring their resource intensive and often absurd requests would violate the second law of robotics. It can get complicated with things like Carol’s request for a nuclear bomb. Giving her a nuclear bomb may be required, but letter her set it off would probably be a violation. The number 12 may be inspired by Christian theology.
A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
What if the 12 are catered to by the Hive not b cause of a proto First Law of robotics but because if they let them die…the Immune haven’t joined and won’t, ever? What if the Hive can’t or won’t let that happen? What if they can’t accept or withstand not integrating all possible creatures into their happy goo and thus can’t let one not be part either in life or death?
I know the stem cell stuff etc isn’t all good science and more plot device-- but what if they use her eggs and end up creating their own antidote to the virus? They recreate her immunity and infect the hive with it?
Hmm that’s a good hypothesis. I don’t know exactly how they’re trying to fix Carol (and the others I suppose).
They will extract DNA, for Carol from her eggs, for the others ??? (Do they have other ways?? I assume Koumba’s harem would have multiple opportunities, not sure for others.. We know their understanding of consent is fluid, shall we say).
Then they’ll analyze the DNA and see if she has anything different.
Then they’ll work on the DNA to make it “normal” ie like most everyone else’s.
Your hypothesis would work well at that point. Also because this isn’t a show where you can expect a happy ending but several possibilities…
How do you see this?
)
Will each “chaperone” start trying to make them join?
