<p>sybbie I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying some thnic groups don’t like to pay the EFC so we have to give them merit scholarships? I that is the case which ethnic groups do like to pay the EFC?</p>
<p>I say give aid where it is needed but give merit money where is is merited. Is there some reason why race aware merit scholarships are a good idea?</p>
<p>There are some schools that feel the necessity to give merit awards if they are going to get certain groups of students. The alternative is that they do not get any or hardly any of those kids. I know that Goucher, Wheaton are two examples of schools that came to the realization that they were not going to survive as single sex schools. When they opened the doors to males, they did have to make concessions for the males who applied. They did have to give out some merit scholarships. They did this in a way that was definitely discriminatory to women. Hopefully, the situation does not continue as the male/female ratio reaches an equilibrium CMU has engineering and computer science and science majors up the whazooo. But look at the male/femal ratio at the school. Yes there are special awards for females who go into science there. Doubt you’ll see males getting much in the way of scholarships outside of financial aid if they are going into the most competitive major. But the right set of chromosomes does make the difference. Boston College tends to like to give their money to kids outside of the geographic area where most of their applicants come from. They want a national pool of students and they are willing to pay for them. I know a young lady from Pittsburgh who was accepted to ND and BC, but that scholarship wooed her from ND. Fair? No. But it is no secret this is happening. Why would you think it is any different for ethnicity? You do know that many colleges have quotas for international students by country? If you come from an overrepresented country, it is more difficult to get into the school. This is the same principle at work. If you were the head of Rhodes College in Tennessee, how would you go about getting more people of color to the school? Leaving it vanilla, does hurt the school overall in many different ways. You want to get the diversity that other fine schools have. How do you go about it? You can lower the bars for those you want, have special programs, give scholarships, recruit. That is what such colleges are doing. </p>
<p>At the University of Michigan, a question was raised about scholarships and financial aid for musical theatre majors. The dept head was very direct in his answer. Because this program has such an incredible number of applicants, there are very few scholarships, and financial aid for out of staters is virtually non existant. They don’t need to attract them. Tisch School at NYU is stingier about merit aid than it s other schools as it charges more tuition. It is what the market will bear. </p>
<p>And for some schools where the ratios are so small for certain groups of students, I daresay that they “earn” that scholarship. It is not easy to be such a minority and clear the path. It is much easier for the later classes to come in when precedents are set. I went to a school that went coed right before I came there, and there were few amenties for us girls in those early classes. We did give up things to go that school. Now not a quarter is given for females as the classes are 50/50 or slightly favoring the females!</p>
<p>“I can sympathize with most of these comments. S applied EA to UChicago & Caltech & got into both before Christmas. He had a terrible time choosing between the two (thought he would be studying physics). I was so embarassed that he hadn’t made a decision by early Feb. that we had a major row over it-- it’s so tacky, rude, and inconsiderate to be taking up 2 spots at such great schools”</p>
<p>There is nothing tacky and rude about waiting until May 1 to reply to EA schools.</p>
<p>I am an alum interviewer for Harvard, a single choice EA school. I sure don’t expect that EA accepted students will immediately accept their offers. I highly doubt that Harvard adcoms expect this either, and have seen nothing from adcoms indicating that they do.</p>
<p>I know that the EA accepted applicants tend to be the top students in the admission pool, and are likely to also get other excellent offers. To me, Harvard’s accepting them EA is a strong message to the students that they are top choices, which is quite an honor. Presumably, this message will encourage the students to eventually accept Harvard’s offer, but Harvard is not pressuring them to do so before May 1, the date in which their decision is due.</p>
<p>Question about Carnegie Mellon: I see nothing on its web site that it is an EA college. It only lists ED and regular as options. Did that policy just change?</p>
<p>Are you saying some thnic groups don’t like to pay the EFC so we have to give them merit scholarships? </p>
<p>No that is not what I am saying (and I think that you know that). I am saying that this group are going to be less likely to turn down a college if they cannot afford the EFC , may not be able to get Plus loans due to creditworthiness, or not being able to take on more debt. Their solution will be to go locally or attend a school where they can get a full ride. </p>
<p>To my understanding, at schools like Chicago, WUSL, the money that we are talking about merit money not simply handing out money to some one who just happens to be black or hispanic. So wouldn’t this mean that they would have to meet the criteria for merit. </p>
<p>These schools beleive that the solution to creating diversity is to throw money at the situation, which may not be the best solution when the student must come up against the mind set which you are displaying, the studnet feels even with money, it may not be worth it.</p>
<p>The prep schools discourage or down right prohibit trophy hunting. However, in certain cases, the counselors will feel a student should have a lot of options open. It really does depend upon the kid’s situation. I don’t see the problem, as unlike the analogy with the reserved empty seats at a theatre, the seats at the colleges are released before the show starts. There is still college action with the waitlists which schools are aggresively using. I don’t see any reason why a kid who gets into Yale should have to pull his app to Harvard and Princeton. He is free to go through the trouble of applying, paying the fees, and picking among the three schools if he is so lucky to get that choice. As a matter of courtesy, I do believe that no one should hold onto schools where there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of the student wanting to go, but it is ultimately that student’s choice if he wants to hold onto those schools just to do so. </p>
<p>When my son was accepted SCEA, I was surprised at his counselor’s reaction about withdrawing apps. She felt that he should keep a number of them, as his choices were so varied and the schools were so different. He could change his mind about what he wanted to do, his grades could sink so low, he could lose the EA acceptance (yeah, I know, I 'm sick about that possibility, but with him it is a reality). He earned his acceptances and to short himself was not necessary according to the counselor. Only the choices that were definitely out should be notified, and schools so like the accepted one that it makes no sense. He applied, paid, auditioned, put hours into the process, he earned the right to think about it till May 1st. That is the reward you get for filing multi apps. By the way, it is not that e</p>
<p>sybbie - this sub-thread started with U of Chicago and I am not as familiar with their merit scholarships as I am with WUSL’s. WUSL has merit scholarships that anyone of any race creed color etc can apply for. They also have scholarships - not need based aid or grants but named scholarships specifically for Blacks and Hispanics (two different programs). They specifically say in their literature that if you are Black or Hispanic you can apply for and recieve both the racially reserved scholarships and the other general offerings which usually have specific requirements associated with them.</p>
<p>My understanding is that the University of Chicago has the same kind of single race merit scholarships. I cannot see how that can be squared with the law and it certainly cannot be squared with WUSL stated non-discrimination policy. I sympathize it might be hard to get middle-class Black families to pay the EFC but if you are going to have merit scholarships then they have to be based on merit and everybody has to be judged without regard to race. if these schools have no problem applying holistic admissions policies then it should be even easier with the relatively fewer merit scholarship applicants.</p>
<p>I agree with sac and jamimom’s son’s guidance counselor. Setting aside the financial issues (which are real for many), high school juniors and seniors in Sept, Oct, are often just at the beginning of the learning curve about colleges. Buyer’s remorse is not unknown among ed acceptees. It is frequently the period from Dec on when kids really begin to tune in to the realities of their choice, and if they have earned several acceptances, they’re in a better position to choose in April.</p>
<p>Also agree with those who doubt that “trophy hunting” is much of a factor. Those apps are no fun to fill out.</p>
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<p>I agree this is a worthy goal … but any private school can work towards or reject that goal … from the viewpoint of a top school using the ED and Merit proceses to their advantage can help their school tremendously … even if might not be the best system for all of the applicant pool.</p>
<p>Why do so many have a problem with the concept that private colleges are businesses? They compete with each other. When the baby boomlet is over in a few years there will be losers, colleges that can’t keep themselves solvent. The second and third tier is busy building new gyms and prettier dorms with this reality in mind. </p>
<p>We can’t blame schools for using merit money and any other strategy available to them to attract better students and up their profile. Just another business!</p>
<p>Pomona Dean is worried about the quality he may not be able to attract, as more and more kids prefer EA or SCEA. From his angle ED makes sense fir his school. But he conveniently forget to discourage to a BWRK kid with medium stats that please do not waste your ED chance, as Pomona will not admit him based on his qualifications? All he cares about this kid is to boost his school yield rate. This dean never cried about the old policy ever? Did he? So when Pomona starts to loose out, they are now crying wolf. </p>
<p>Has Pomona dean given any thought to a student who needs financial aid to go to college and thus apply many places? A lot of people like me who happen to be in need of financial aid and would like to send our kid in excellent schools like anyone else. We are trying to secure every penny that we can get in terms of financial aid. </p>
<p>However, if the first EA/SCEA/ED school offers a great financial aid package satisfactory to the students family, I would bet you would see a lot of super talented kids not applying any place after their first choice have been settled. Remember a lot of family do not participate about college and make a choice based on the best financial aid package offered by a school. Most of the kids fall in this category instead of trophy hunting what Pomona dean let you believe.</p>
<p>“Has Pomona dean given any thought to a student who needs financial aid to go to college and thus apply many places?”</p>
<p>I think they do it, but maybe in a different way. Before talking about the ulterior motives of a school and critizing their stances, it might be wise to consider the school record. </p>
<p>When it comes to financial aid, Pomona is widely recognized as one of the most generous schools in its category. Inasmuch as they may be helped by the fact that 52% of the class does not need financial aid, they seem do well in the rankings that use the students inputs. </p>
<p>As far as being worried about their yield, I think that every school is worrying about the best way to build its freshman class. Looking at the admission statistics of Pomona, I doubt that they have to play games with ED admits or financial aid gimmicks. I have also few doubts that they would not suffer under a 100% RD system. Schools like Pomona lose candidates to other schools -even the Goliath Harvard loses about 20% of its admit pool. However, they would have few problems in building a substantial waiting list. Since the domino effect builds force as it progresses, the impact of using a wider waiting list would have a much bigger impact on schools that are a bit lower in the rankings and HAVE to rely on smaller admit pools and larger waiting lists. On the issue of financial aid, I do not think that there exists a worst bargaining position than coming off the waiting list.</p>
<p>Trophy hunting does exist after all. From the Harvard board:</p>
<p>Why you shouldn’t mess with Harvard.
This is perhaps the funniest admissions story I’ve heard so far:</p>
<p>Someone I know got into Yale EA, but applied to Harvard RD “just so he could turn them down.” His mother was talking to another parent a few weeks ago and told her about the joke (“Yes, well, he’s going to Yale–got in Early–but he applied to Harvard so that he could turn them down! Wouldn’t it be hilarious?”).</p>
<p>Unfortunately for her, the fellow parent happened to be the wife of the local Harvard ASC chairman. I somehow doubt he’ll be admitted.</p>
<p>Marite, that story was hilarious.</p>
<p>LOL to Marite’s story. :)</p>
<p>Re: race-based merit scholarships. They do certainly exist - you also get geographic ones (such as for people from West Virginia, two merit scholarships per year at my l.s.)… but I really must say that this practice does not bother me. I would, any day, rather be racially acceptable (i.e. Caucasian or Asian) instead of a minority (under-represented) with a merit scholarship. Approximately one in six black men will be incarcerated in their lifetimes. A study showed that when black students took placement tests for mathematics in the 8th grade, they were, with the same scores, more likely to be placed in remedial classes than their white peers. While I understand the UMich decision of last year and how this all cannot be squared with equal protection, I really don’t have it in me to be upset. The kids who manage to get into these colleges (yes, I know that there is a tremendous boost to being black - but these students have often overcome a lot just to be in the position to pass the laugh test when they apply) do so in spite of being black. I don’t feel self-righteous or entitled enough to get irate about some money given to help people who are discriminated against in ways I can’t begin to imagine. </p>
<p>Just my take.</p>
<p>From the legal angle as well - wondering who is funding said scholarships? If they are privately funded (i.e. alums), would it still be legally impermissible?</p>
<p>Ariesathena, minority scholarships certainly exist in many colleges. Too many of them to be illegal, I would think. There are nationality and ethnicity scholarships, female scholarships, course of study scholarships. I do have a memory somewhere about some ruling regarding race based scholarships, but do not really remember what it was.</p>
<p>I seem to remember that private individuals can do things that public institutions cannot - if, for example, the Podnuck African-American Society alums raised money for a scholarship for students, that has a better chance of being legal than if the school were to consider minority status when deciding routine grants. </p>
<p>There are some things which are legal and drive me crazy; there are some things which are illegal that I don’t (and can’t) care about - this being one of those situations.</p>
<p>Ariesathena, private organizations can do what they want, though there would certainly be an uproar for caucasian student scholarship program. But there are a number of schools that have scholarship specifically earmarked for minorities. I am thinking in particular about CMU, but I know it is not the only one.</p>
<p>Jamimom - did not know the specifics of the CMU one. Agree that there would be an uproar if Caucasians were to do the same… but, in some regards, that happens indirectly. I would be shocked if NMS were not given out disproportionately to whites… you get where I am going. It’s also disproportionately given to upper-middle class kids in nice schools with educated parents, but we all know about that… it’s just that, for some reason, I can’t get upset by the minority thing although my head tells me that it is illegal, a violation of equal protection and due process, and discriminatory.</p>
<p>The law does not forbid all sort of discrimination. It only forbids discrimination based on race creed, sex, national origin, sometimes sexual orientation or age etc. Whatever is not specifically forbidden is permitted. Hence discriminating on the basis of geography or atheletic ability or even political persuasion is fine. In fact the people most often legally discriminated against are the fat, dumb, and ugly. They do not belong to a protected class.</p>
<p>Also the fact that a practice is common and widespread doesn’t speak to its conformance with the law or the constitution. We are hashing out the issue of gay marriage now and it remains to be seen how it will be resolved but obviously some learned judges hold the ban on same sex marriage to be in violation of the constitution. Taht ban may well be overturned just as the abortion laws were overturned.</p>
<p>The question here is not affirmative action in admittence. I don’t have a major qualm with that. Nor do I have a problem with need based aid fully realizing that underepresented minorities may in fact need more need based aid than most students. The question is whether there should be separate water fountains for merit based aid? Who pays when that happens? And what does it say about merit? Who suffers when the pool of money is divvied on racial lines? I can tell you it is not the wealthy who will miss opportunities. It is the non-minority of modest means and exceptional merit who will foot the bill for the rich man’s conscience.</p>
<p>Patuxent, was there some ruling about scholarships? I thought there was some mention when the Michigan ruling came out, but it completely eludes me. There is still discrimination for sex–we do have single sex colleges, few but we do have them. And scholarships earmarked for women, particularly in the sciences, I have seen them, again, CMU comes to mind. The historically black colleges do not discriminate on the basis of race. Students of all colors are accepted there, and I have known caucasians who have gone to Grambling, Morgan State, etc. It’s just that few apply, and fewer end up going. Perhaps the scholarship issue has not been specifically challenged in court.</p>