Pomona Remains Firm While Other Schools Abandon Early Decision

Parents Forum
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<p>Calmom,</p>

<p>As I said, financial aid is an imperfect process, and that holds true for determining need, assembling types/amounts of financial aid, and executing the process for each student. Therein lies the reason for different 568 group schools presenting packages that can vary considerably. This is why there’s value to doing a lot of research to know your financial aid “chances” as well as you know your admissions “chances”. I’d wager that most students and many parents do not perform this due diligence.</p>

<p>It appears as if you and I agree on something that I repeat ad infinitum, which is, do NOT apply ED unless that school is clearly one’s No. 1 choice AND financial consideration is not a significant factor. This is a personal judgment that each student/family must make based on specific circumstances. </p>

<p>First of all, Bruce Poch is Dean of Admissions… he is not head of their Office of Financial Aid. Still, he presents a consistent picture of what is manifested regarding financial aid at Pomona. Speaking about ED/EA programs, Bruce Poch’s quote on “discriminating” is as follows:</p>

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<p>You’ll note that he doesn’t speak for all ED/EA programs, but rather speaks about Pomona in specific. The numbers are telltale that they are doing something right that does not discriminate. In actuality, Early programs are not intrinsically discriminating; however, it’s true that disadvantaged students who lack access to good counseling, college-educated parents who can advocate on their behalf, and resources to admissions/test preparation suffer from “apparent barriers” that translate into real obstacles. I defend Bruce Poch and Pomona because Poch is a proponent of true educational values and dismantling the framework of frenzy that we see in today’s college admissions. I think you have a reason to feel frustrations, but taking them out on Bruce Poch and Pomona is misplaced.</p>

<p>Regarding my daughter, I am uncertain how you’ve come to your conclusions about my daughter, but your assumptions are incorrect. In fact, my daughter did apply ED to Emory University, where she was accepted and attends. We did something that I would not advise most students. She applied ED and was still able to get a great financial aid package. It was a calculated risk, but in my case, I calculated well. I did more research than anybody else I know, and I allowed my daughter to apply ED only after I was confident that my research was well-founded. We did this because she knew that Emory was the school for her, for many reasons, and I was certain that I could make things work. Subsequent to her acceptance, I still had to “negotiate” with Emory’s Office of Financial Aid, but those negotiations proved successful. I don’t discount general practices and policies, but I like to be treated as an individual and also have my daughter dealt with as an individual. To Emory’s credit, that’s what they did – but I also knew that they have one of the largest endowments in the country and could afford to hear about my daughter’s special circumstances. In short, everything worked out, and as a gesture, I took the Emory Financial Advisor who assisted me through the process out to lunch when I was in Atlanta last month. In a sense, I was able to “compare packages” by comparing numbers and practices revealed through research. I didn’t have a problem contacting Financial Aid offices and speaking with the Director of Financial Aid to get answers to my questions, hypothetical as they were. Would this work for everybody? I don’t know, but it worked for us. Incidentally, although my daughter eventually withdrew all her other applications, UC Berkeley did send her an acceptance, which we kindly declined.</p>

<p>Regarding single parents and ex-spouses, I know this well. I have been a full-time single parent to my daughter since she was 3 years old – her mother moved out of state at that point in her life and has not been back since. She has not provided any financial support since then, and neither did I expect any. And yes, dealing with the “non-custodial parent” issues is not fun, but I just deal with them.</p>

<p>I’ll end with a quote from Bruce Poch in his article, and I’m willing to believe him:<br>

Reference: The Student Life – Pomona College: Article:<br>
<a href=“http://www.tsl.pomona.edu/index.php?article=1769[/url]”>http://www.tsl.pomona.edu/index.php?article=1769&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>NorCalDad – I simply don’t believe that it is likely that vary many middle-income families like ours ($40-$60K income range) are going to risk the ED route. Poch’s statement that “We’ve got pretty much the same number of kids on financial aid in the early decision group as we do overall.” means nothing because we don’t know the level of the awards represented. It may be that half of the ED gets are “on financial aid” but most have packages of $10K or less, whereas half the RD kids or gettijng aid, but their packages average $20K. The only financial-aid seeking groups that can afford to apply ED are (1)the ones who are very low income and know they will get near full rides, or (2) the families who with upper middle income ranges who would like aid, but have the ability to shoulder the risk of getting less than planned, such as those with significant assets available to liquidate or borrow against. The #1 group is highly unlikely to have the sort of information or advising that leads to ED applications, so most of the ED/financial aid grouop are going to be in the #2 group. </p>

<p>I am sorry I misread your earlier post – you had mentioned comparing your daughter’s award to Pomona’s, but now when went back I see that you were comparing it only to packages that were “usually offered” at Pomona. I undertand that you probably thought you were doing the right sort of research, but unfortunately that represents a very naive understanding of how financial aid works. There is considerable variation from one case to another, so looking at typical packages only gives you an average, not a specific amount that relates to your circumstances. There are all sorts of contingencies not factored in to a given example - so even if the school provides a chart or set of examples based on family income or assets, that has limited predictive value. The one thing that is helpful is when colleges have clear policies about loans and work-study, and provide information about that: if theey limit or cap those amounts and also meet 100% need, then you know that you can expect a good size grant… assuming that your idea of need is whatever theirs is. </p>

<p>You mentioned that you had to negotiate with Emory about “special circumstances” applying to your family. I assume that you know that anything with such a label is entirely within the discretion of the school to address. What would you have done if the college had refused to adjust for those circumstances? If your answer is that you would have found a way to make it all work… then you probably come from stronger economic circumstances than you think. </p>

<p>I say that because there is a big difference between being put in a situation where you have to spend or borrow more than you wanted to, or tap into retirement funds – and a situation where you simply are facing expenses that ere beyond your means. A family already carrying a lot of debt might simply be unable to come up with extra money or afford to make payments on additional loans. I use that example because consumer debt is a type of expense that the colleges will not consider – so the family with net earnings of $75K annually and $30K worth of debt (car payments, credit cards, etc.) is not in the same position financially as the family with the same income but no debt. Because of the vagaries of the financial aid system, the family with no debt but the same amount of expenses for private school tuition for a younger sibling will probably get more aid than the family with debt + younger sibling in public school – one of the many subtle ways that the financial aid system as a whole favors families with more discretionary income.</p>

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<p>calmom: “I thought that by definition, ED was a binding commitment. The Reed site says” …</p>

<p>It’s on a different page, <a href=“http://www.reed.edu/academic/catalog/35.html:[/url]”>http://www.reed.edu/academic/catalog/35.html:&lt;/a&gt; “Early Decision Option I: Candidates applying under the early decision Option I must submit all application materials by November 15. Admission decisions on completed applications will be mailed by December 15. Providing the Profile and Reed’s application form 6 are on file in the financial aid office by November 15, a tentative financial aid decision will be mailed with the offer of admission.”</p>

<p>I double-checked with Reed admissions about its truly being an offer; they confirmed, it’s an offer, with no penalty due to financial issues. Reed is not part of the 31-school COHFE group which shares information with others about ED students who have declined enrollment; Reed does not penalize in such cases.</p>

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<p>You guys sound like you know alot about the way ED and fin. aid works and it has been a big topic at our house. We will have an EFC of anywhere from 12k (Dartmouth calculator) to 18k (finaid.org calculator for same price) and must have need-based aid in order to attend. My son is interested in Emory, Pomona, CMC, Williams, Davidson and Whitman. We are trying to decide if it is an intelligent decision to apply ED somewhere if they say they meet 100% of need. Couldn’t they just give you a bunch of loans? What info. do we use to make this decision? (we don’t have big home equity so that isn’t an issue)</p>

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<p>I swear, Vossron, the more I hear about the supposed specialness of Reed from parents, the more dismayed I get. This is what the page you linked to says:

How anyone could reasonably interpret that to mean that Reed has some unique procedure that allows student to opt-out of ED if they don’t like the financial aid award is beyond me. It says in in plain language that they are required to withdraw other applications and pay a deposit within 2 weeks. </p>

<p>You may be technically right that Reed doesn’t do anything to share the info with other colleges, so it may be possible to get away with violating the agreement, but I certainly don’t feel favorably disposed to any college that would play such games – and given that the section you cites says nothing like what you said, it is beyond me how some financially needy student is supposed to know or anticipate that Reed has some special leniency in their practices. </p>

<p>ED is a promise. Of course people can cheat and break their promises – I’ll bet there are a dozens of kids every year that cheat by applying to multiple ED schools at once, and then choose based on which ones accept them and simply lie to the others if they have the good fortune to be accepted at more than one. That they can get away with it doesn’t mean that others should follow suit.</p>

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<p>

Calmom, you are demonstrating that you are willing to make a lot of unfounded assumptions, offer dubious rationalizations and create hypothetical scenarios as a way to substantiate your arguments. Unfortunately, much of it is invalid, and your “understanding” is incorrect. You have no idea of the extent of the research I did. You have no idea of what resources I had access to. You have no idea of the people I spoke with. If you want to suggest that what I did “represents a very naïve understanding of how financial aid works”, why don’t you give me a clear expression of what research I did do and where you find it to be based on naivete?</p>

<p>

I will quote from my previous post: “do NOT apply ED unless that school is clearly one’s No. 1 choice AND financial consideration is not a significant factor”. I don’t advise or recommend students apply ED without careful forethought.</p>

<p>Further: “*We did something that I would not advise most students. She applied ED and was still able to get a great financial aid package. It was a calculated risk, but in my case, I calculated well.*” Repeat, I don’t advise what we did for most students; however, in our case, results speak for themselves, and my daughter and I are happy with the results.</p>

<p>Unless you are my accountant, which you are not, you don’t know what you’re talking about when you say, “then you probably come from stronger economic circumstances than you think. What economic circumstances would that be?</p>

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<p>Is ED inherently fair? Hmmm. Well it’s certainly fair to all those applicants who wouldn’t be accepted in the RD round. (Is that what the argument is about?) </p>

<p>In Pomona’s defense I’m certain that all its ED admits are top notch academically. This is certainly NOT true for all schools. The only way we’ll ever know for sure whether ED provides and unfair advantage (or unfair disadvantage) for some applicants is for an elite school to randomly vary its acceptance practices from year to year – fill the entire class from ED some years, and fill the entire class from RD in other years. The problem with this of course, is that if the socioeconomic demographics turn out to be the same for both methods all it proves is that the admissions folk are doing their jobs really well.</p>

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<p>NorCalDad, I’m not going to argue with you. You got lucky. If you had been unable to negotiate successfully with Emory on financial aid, then either you would be paying more money than you planned, or you would have been looking for ways to get out of the ED commitment. All the “research” in the world into financial aid practices means nothing unless you have the exact formulaes and policy manual that the college is using, especially for anyone who claims to have a “special circumstance” requireing re-evaluation of the award.</p>

<p>I happen to have seen a lot more financial aid awards, and the results of submitting the exact same financial data to multiple schools. I’ve seen the ways the colleges fudge the data, in ways that can help or harm the candidate. I know that any college that claims to meet “100% need” but also uses “Institutional Methodology” is simply playing a game with words – including the college that my daughter now attends. I’m happy with my daughter’s financial aid, but that doesn’t change the fact that the EFC to attend Prestigous East Coast U. is $12,000 more than EFC to attend Ordinary State U, or why the EFC would be would have been almost double that to attend the coveted 568 Group U. Is that 568 Group school providing 100% need? They say they do… but where is a needy family supposed to come up with an extra $20,000 a year above and beyond the FAFSA EFC?</p>

<p>The FAFSA itself may not reflect true need, but at least it is a consistent standard determined primarily by an independent, third party. (There’s wiggle room in that, too – and colleges go right ahead and fudge with the FAFSA data too once a kid is admitted, but at least you can see what the’ve done).</p>

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<p>calmom: “It says in in plain language that they are required to withdraw other applications and pay a deposit within 2 weeks.”</p>

<p>Yes, that is how the offer is accepted. I have pointed out to the Reed people that the language is confusing (as proof, here we are discussing it!) and could be clarified. I interpret the situation as unclear language, not as games.</p>

<p>I asked Reed for clarification, and I got it; anyone can do the same, rather than assuming the worst.</p>

<p>orjr, loans are indeed an issue at some schools, and some publish their average indebtedness at graduation. If they don’t, I would ask.</p>

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<p>Vossron, unless Reed gave you “clarification” in writing, it is meaningless. Basic legal principle – an oral statement can’t override what is in writing.</p>

<p>Legally, ED agreements are unenforceable in any case, but the point is that Reed’s ED option is exactly the same as any other school. The word “required” is susceptible of only one interpretation: it is mandatory. If the kid is accepted and then fails to enroll, they have breached the agreement. Whether any negative consequence arises is another question entirely – I wouldn’t be surprised of some high school guidance counselors take it on themselves to notify other schools when one of their students has been admitted ED somewhere.</p>

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<p>calmom: “an oral statement can’t override what is in writing”</p>

<p>The clarification I received from Reed was in writing, from two different officials.</p>

<p>calmom, what was your experience with Reed that caused you to assume the worst about the school? My experience has been only positive.</p>

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<p>Vossron, I’m a lawyer. I can read and I know how to interpret what I read. If Reed writes on its web site that it has binding ED and then tells you privately that it isn’t binding, that’s great for you - I’m glad you asked that – but I certainly don’t think its fair or honest to all of the rest of the applicants who are going to read the paperwork and believe what it says. </p>

<p>I am not “assuming the worst” about Reed - I am assuming the best. I am reading what is written in plain, unequivocal text on their web site and choosing to believe that they are being accurate in what they print, and that people who make unsubstantiated claims to the contrary on the internet are simply mistaken or misinformed. </p>

<p>All colleges will say that they will let people out of ED if the financial aid award is not satisfactory, but that doesn’t exempt the person from possible consequences of their decision, and the problem is that they college’s view as to what is appropriate may be very different than the applicant’s view of what is needed. High school guidance counselors see what is going on, and they may also have some familiarity of the family’s financial situation – so if they feel that the award was reasonable and see a student fail to carry out their end of the bargain and enroll, then they are not likely to help that student with other college apps, and they may go so far as to let other colleges know of the ED acceptance. </p>

<p>I don’t like ED. I think the practice is discriminatory against financially needy students and makes an unfair demand on students to commit to a college without full information as to costs – even the award you get in December can change radically in the spring based on the next year’s tax returns. </p>

<p>But I still think that ED constitutes an agreement, and as much as I dislike ED, I dislike people who would play games with it and look for ways to avoid their commitment even more. A student who applies ED is asking for early consideration against a smaller applicant pool in exchange for the promise to attend if admitted. If the student doesn’t intent at the outset to honor that promise, then the student shouldn’t apply ED.</p>

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<p>Calmom, usually I agree with what you write, but not this time. </p>

<p>“All colleges will say that they will let people out of ED if the financial aid award is not satisfactory, but that doesn’t exempt the person from possible consequences of their decision, and the problem is that they college’s view as to what is appropriate may be very different than the applicant’s view of what is needed. High school guidance counselors see what is going on, and they may also have some familiarity of the family’s financial situation – so if they feel that the award was reasonable and see a student fail to carry out their end of the bargain and enroll, then they are not likely to help that student with other college apps, and they may go so far as to let other colleges know of the ED acceptance.”</p>

<p>Do you know of situations where the student says he/she can’t afford the ed school and the college takes actions detrimental to the student? Do you know cases where high school guidance counselors won’t help with a student’s apps after a kid says he can’t afford the ed school?</p>

<p>I am not talking theoretical, I am talking real situations.</p>

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<p>calmom: “I am reading what is written in plain, unequivocal text”</p>

<p>The equivocal part is: “… will be mailed with the offer of admission.”</p>

<p>“choosing to believe that they are being accurate in what they print”</p>

<p>You choose your interpreation, ignoring my report that your interpretation is wrong.</p>

<p>“I dislike people who would play games with it and look for ways to avoid their commitment even more.”</p>

<p>You feel you have found a loophole in web site text, and so you you dislike the people behind it, and assume they are looking for ways to avoid their commitments. You are indeed, and obviously, assuming the worst.</p>