<p>Now, don’t get me wrong: ALL religions it seems tend to throw up a bunch of fanatics now and again. (I don’t know of many Buddhist ones, but I might be ignorant on that score.) And there would be nothing wrong with noting that fact (though Benedict, claiming to wear the mantle of peace, should be somewhat circumspect in what he says). But the point he was making (although we don’t know what he believes and why, if didn’t believe the person he was quoting, he chose to quote him) is that “evil” is attributable to the founder. Since the Nazis, as well as Christians for some 1700 years, took the Sword of Jesus literally, he could have started with the mote in his own eye, I should think.</p>
<p>Frankly, I don’t even read that one passage in the bible the way you read it. You are completely distorting it; intentionally, of course.</p>
<p>Yes, there were relatively few in the Confessing Church: That is the whole point.</p>
<p>How many humans are brave and strong enough to give up their lives and the welfare of their families for a belief system? Maybe you are. I am not so sure I am. I would not be so presumptuous.</p>
<p>Your artifacts and AM’s quotes are from the late '20’s, early '30’s. That is what is known as “co-opting.” Show me all your Christianity quotes and artifacts from the very late '30’s and '40’s, when Hitler was firmly in power. Even the best minds were fooled in the beginning (i.e. Bonhoeffer). I think it’s despicable to use a few photographs of Hilter or a Nazi flag with a cross to denigrate Christianity. I’ve learned a lot here. Thanks.</p>
<p>I’ll be sure to check out nobeliefs.com from time to time for the most enlightened current event analysis.</p>
<p>“The Nazis took the sword of Jesus literally.” - Unbelievable.</p>
<p>distorting something in the bible, what a concept…who is to really say what anything in the bible really means…who has the lock on any interpretation, translation, usage…</p>
<p>is it literal
is it symbolic
is the history accurate
who picked what is in it
how many translations did it take to get to that phrase
what was left out</p>
<p>this is not an anti-faith question btw</p>
<p>its a point to show that NO ONE has the right to say their “read” of the bible is any better than anyone elses, and to do so is the height of arrogance</p>
<p>and to call names to those that wonder, question, don’t take a book writen 2000 and more years ago as the be all end all is itself a kind of dogma</p>
<p>The “battle” between the Pope and the Islamic Radicals is really scary, if you ask me…the reaction to the Pope’s words, (which I wonder- was he naive, or crazy like a fox) go to kind of “prove” what he said, in a warped kind of way- he said it was violent, and now, some want him dead…</p>
<p>(and the wife of a Irish Catholic whose families went through the troubles religion is all tied up in the political- was for hundreds of years)</p>
<p>Hitler didn’t spring up full blown from the Bavarian Alps. His doctrine found fertile ground in CENTURIES of European/Christian anti-semitism. I don’t think he invented the term ‘Christ killer’, didn’t write the Passion Play, didn’t discover that Jews used the blood of innocent Christians to make Passover Matzoh. It is all too convenient to ascribe the Holocaust to an ahistorical monster.</p>
<p>Exactly hereshoping. ‘Some’ is better than 'None" with regard to the Confessing Church. I find it incredible that mini takes issue with the number of those who chose to stand up against evil. </p>
<p>mini - The Martin Luther Rose was commissioned by Prince John Frederick in the days in which Martin Luther lived. I wear a Luther Rose necklace exactly like the one in that picture…I rec’d it at my confirmation. You can go into any James Avery store and buy a Luther Rose pin or necklace. It is not a Nazi symbol. That the Martin Luther rose is included with other Nazi crap at your link proves what a bs piece of propaganda it is.</p>
<p>As hereshoping mentions…No one disputes the fact that, in his quest for power Hitler, shamelessly co-op’d any set of ideals he could find that would be palatable to the German public. And when he was through with Lutherans, Catholics and Christians, he turned to pagan belief systems. And when he decided HE was the messiah, Hitler revealed his true hatred of anyone who believed in anything other than HIM.</p>
<p>mini - you will need to clarify yourself…certainly you are not trying to say it was the Lutheran Church who 'threw up a bunch of fanatics (Nazis). If so, aren’t some of you expecting the Pope to apologize for similar ‘insults’??</p>
<p>A simple Sunday School Lesson with Accurate Info about the Luther Rose:</p>
<p>In 52 a.d. Thomas the apostle with many Jewish famalies came to India (southern India) to convert the population to christianity, surprisingly in that area there weren’t any hindus but tribal religions. Anyway, as of now, 2000 years later, there are still these Syrian Christians (approx 30 million) but most of them are divided into Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant denominations due to european influence.</p>
<p>During the 1500s the Portugues came to India and enforced Catholicism to the Indian People, not by peace but by violence and hatred.
Even Syrian Christianity was seen as something false (because it had a lot of jewish culture in it, these christians had a mix of indian and jewish blood, alot of sacred texts were also destroyed by the catholics. syrian is a dialect of aramaic and thts how the name comes to be, it has nothing to do w/ syria), they made most of the syrian christians and hindus convert to catholicism.</p>
<p>These methodes used by the catholics and the muslims extremists are not much different.</p>
<p>I am a Roman Catholic (of Indian descent) and I think my ancestors were converted to catholicism from Syrian Christianity 500 years ago by the Portugeues.</p>
<p>Well I’m Irish and I’m pretty sure my Druid ancestors were converted to Catholicism around the year 400. Maybe we can come up with a few more current examples of Christian jihad.</p>
<p>the roman catholic church has changed compared to 500 years ago.</p>
<p>these syrian christians were forced to follow the “latin” way during the 1500s
but in the 1800s the pope made a new rite in the catholic church called SYRIAN MALABAR CHURCH, a church in the catholic church for syrian christians.</p>
<p>then in the 70s they made thomas the apostle patron saint of india.
john paul has tried to preserve the ancient jewish christian ideas and cultures of syrian christians.</p>
<p>Christian Jihad:
May I suggest the Holocaust, the African Slave Trade, Genocide against Indiginous Americans, 19th Century Pogroms in Eastern Europe, 19th & 20th Century European Imperialism in Africa and Asia.</p>
<p>gla – the context of this discussion relates to modern day occurrences of Christian jihad. Quite a few prior posts discussed the failings of Christianity in terms of the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. </p>
<p>I’m still waiting for a current example of Christians murdering others in order to convert them.</p>
<p>And as many others have argued, the Holocaust was not a Christian war against Judaism. I’m not aware of any legitimate Christian denomination that has done anything except repudiate that genocide. In fact, my son’s Catholic HS has a Holocaust survivor speak regularly, a Jewish Student Union and includes Rabbis and Orthodox priests in religious services. I really take exception to having the Holocaust laid at the door of my faith.</p>
<p>sjm:
What do you mean by modern day? I would think twentieth century would be contemporary enough.
As far as the Holocaust, I don’t see how one can deny that Hitler’s anti-semitism was built on the foundations of european anti-semitism. I am glad to see that your Catholic HS invites a Holocaust survivor to speak. Do they discuss the crimes and beatification of Pius XII? Polish massacre of Jews in Jedwabne and French complicity in the Holocaust?
I m sure in retrospect many Catholics feel that the Holocaust was wrong. But true reconciliation can only come about when European Christians recognize their complicity in these crimes.
The Mass Murder of Jews was a step up from the ongoing persecution of Jews in Europe, but it was only concievable as the logical, but absurd extension of creating an inferior race.
I don’t lay the Holocaust at the door of your faith, but it is sitting on the porch.</p>
<p>i guess for him modern means
(now, 90s, 80s, and maybe 70s)</p>
<p>well i guess the story about my culture isnot that KNOWN around the world.</p>
<p>“Do they discuss the crimes and beatification of Pius XII? Polish massacre of Jews in Jedwabne and French complicity in the Holocaust?
I m sure in retrospect many Catholics feel that the Holocaust was wrong. But true reconciliation can only come about when European Christians recognize their complicity in these crimes.”</p>
<p>what about the jewish-christians (syrian christians) in india?
because that their christianity had ancient jewish influence it was seen as evil and wrong by the Portugues catholics.
the pope may have been behind it, i have to check on that.</p>
<p>It is interesting to me to hear the vituperous point of view of some non-Christian posters. I have friends who are Jewish and of course the Holocaust doesn’t come up much in conversation. I wonder if your point of view in blaming the Christian faith for the Holocaust is common? It does seem unfair to blame an entire religion for action taken by a particularly deranged person.</p>
<p>I believe there were probably quite a few Christians involved in fighting the Nazi’s and freeing the victims. I’m sure you know that Catholic priests, Gypsies and other non-Aryans were also victims of the Nazi’s. It’s not as if the Catholic Church or any other Christian Church had a policy of genocide.</p>
<p>But I probably will always wonder what my Jewish friends really think. Sometimes I think that these threads do very little to bring different faiths and/or political points of view any closer – the comments just seem polarizing to me.</p>
<p>SJM:
If you want to know what your Jewish friends really think, ask them. As for the Catholic church not having a policy of genocide. That was true in the 20th Century. But Pius XII did refuse to condemn Hitler.
I know that many Catholics were not involved in the Holocaust and that some helped the Jews and some were persecuted for political reasons.
The Holocaust was not the actions of a madman. It was a large scale, industrial, application of anti-semitism.</p>
<p>Tom:
The story of your culture is indeed not well known, but very interesting nonetheless. I recall the film ‘Phantom India’ which had a section on Jews in India, similiar to the Falasha.</p>
<p>Liberals just cannot stand to hear that a sizable minority of the Muslim world is crazy as a loon and dangerous to the rest of us whether we are religious or not and no matter where we live.</p>
<h2>“Do they discuss the crimes and beatification of Pius XII? Polish massacre of Jews in Jedwabne and French complicity in the Holocaust?”</h2>
<p>For every villian, there is a hero. You can’t blame one and fail to acknowledge the other. The British government turned their backs on the Jewish passengers of the Struma; yet Israel had no greater friend than Winston Churchill. And yes, there were French who collaborated with the Nazis, but you can’t ignore the French Resistance and the many Jews safely smuggled to safety through their network. mini’s ‘lovely’ little link shows a Protestant Nazi Church called the Martin Luther Memorial Church where German Nazis worshipped…but did you know that members of the Confessing Church, who resisted Hitler and the Nazis, used that very Church to hide Jews from the SS? I could go on…</p>
<p>This book has many, many pages. Pointing to just one page in order to indict Christianity (and serve a personal agenda) is fanaticism defined.</p>