@fretfulmother I understand the suspicion, but I do think the Ivys really are need blind (to the extent that term means you will not be hurt if you need financial aid). I am fortunate that my D26 really doesn’t care about brand name or prestige at all when it comes to colleges. That may be in part because my spouse and I both went to an Ivy for undergrad and neither of us buys into the “Ivy” hype. We both tell her (which is true), some of our most impressive colleagues and mentors went to little known or no prestige schools. It probably helps that she knows some of those people. We firmly believe you can get an incredible education at all kinds of places, and fit matters way more than the name on the door. That’s not to say that some schools are not “better” than others. There are differences in quality. And the schools at the top of the rankings generally are all quality schools. But there is quality all up and down the selectivity scale and the “best” school for some, is a terrible choice for others. As my D26 says, “just because a school is good, doesn’t mean it’s good for me.” A lot of folks get confused about that. From what you wrote, I can tell you all made the best choice with the foundation school, not sour grapes. A lot of kids wouldn’t have had the self awareness and confidence to do that instead of an Ivy. Kudos to you and your kid for doing what is best for you all!
All this fascinates me because in my mind this is sort of like any other consumer decision. Obviously an important one, but, like, I don’t care how highly Car & Driver rates a sports car if what I actually need is a reliable family car. I’m not going to choose a restaurant with a higher Yelp rating if I want to eat a different type of food, or go to an isolated five-star resort hotel when what I really want is a comfortable AirBnB in a great location. I’m not going to pick which house I buy based on the one getting the most people at the open house, but instead which one I actually can see loving. And so on.
And I do think a lot of people also see colleges that way, but then some other people seem to switch into this mindset where they are somehow missing out if they don’t choose the most selective and/or highest-ranked college that will just barely admit them.
Over time I think I have come to a better understanding of why that is happening, but on some level it is still offputting to me. Like I know it is a very important decision, but to me that is all the more reason to approach it in a highly individualized way, not outsource it to a magazine that can’t possibly give you truly meaningful insights into what makes sense for you and your family.
I think that you have a very good point. Admissions at the most highly ranked universities in the US is both very highly selective and unpredictable. If you get in, this might lead to the feeling of “we have to go because this is a once-in-several-lifetimes opportunity”.
However, this falls very much into the category of “be careful what you wish for, because you might get it”. A university might be highly ranked because of the criteria that some magazine cares about. These might even be reasonable criteria. They just aren’t necessarily the same criteria that applies to any one specific student.
Which university to attend is a decision that we don’t get to make very often. I can see how this can be a very tough decision. Hopefully the many contributors on this web site who have experience one way or another can at least help a few students (or their parents) to be more likely to make a decision that is good for them.
While these side conversations are interesting and relevant to many parents, this particular thread is to answer the OP’s general question. If people feel like continuing these side discussions, they should probably start a separate thread or start a more general thread in the Cafe.
Thank you all for your understanding
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All, I’ve come back to this thread that I started a month and a half ago to share some relevant information I’ve recently learned in case it is useful for anyone else (now or in the future). The Your College Bound Kid’s podcast July 30 Episode (Season 8, episode 557) titled “More Tips for Writing Your Personal Statement” had a segment that was relevant to this topic.
The guest Peg Keogh (starts at 18:40 of episode), was asked whether one should fill out the financial aid forms if you are confident that you will not qualify for need-based aid. She made two points. She said (around minute 28) that at some of the schools, if you do not fill out the forms before freshman year when you apply, they will not let you get institutional aid anytime during the four years the student attends. They clarified that some schools have a no aid for any subsequent years policy, some have a no aid for two years policy, some have a no aid for this year policy, and some allow you to apply for changed circumstances when it happens. So, it is important to check with the schools you are interested in on the specific policies. That point was consistent with what folks have said above.
The second point her and the host made was that they have spoken to some admissions officers at some need aware schools who have told her that if a family who does not need aid applies for financial aid, that could in fact hurt them in admissions. The reason apparently is that some schools have found that yield is lowest for people who request financial aid but do not get it, so they are more inclined to deny those folks to protect yield because they assume that since they applied, they won’t attend if they get no aid. In other words, it could hurt you at some need aware schools to apply for aid as a full pay family!
I will say, this contradiction of the schools who will forbid future institutional aid awards if one doesn’t apply with admissions application, and schools that will hold it against a student if the family applies even if they have no current need is both concerning and fraught.
To me, it seems to imply that for any school that has restrictions on applying for future aid if you don’t apply in the first instance, you have to then try to figure out if applying for aid at the outset will hurt your student’s chances of admission (even though you know you are currently full pay), and then decide what to do. And, if you can’t get that information, your options seem to be - keep your kid’s chances as good as they can be and risk aid ineligibility if circumstances like a job loss occur, or apply for financial aid you don’t currently and may never need and hurt the kid’s chances.
The podcast inspired me to look into some of the need aware schools D26 was interested in. Here’s a sampling of what I found on their websites:
Bryn Mawr - if you don’t apply for aid when applying for admission, you are not eligible for institutional aid for the entire 4 years. Financial Aid Policies
Pitzer - policy for those who started 2020-21 or later is that if you didn’t apply initially, ineligible for 2 years. Policies | Pitzer College
Haverford - crystal clear on their website that even if you don’t apply when you seek admission, you are eligible for aid in future years. https://www.haverford.edu/financial-aid/frequently-asked-questions
Wellesley - clear on their website that if you apply for the first year, and do not get aid, you are eligible for aid in future years if circumstances change, but I could not find information on what happens if you don’t apply for the first year.
Scripps - similarly vague information like Wellesley as far as I can tell.
This makes me yell at the walls. (not at you, I know you are just the messenger!)
How do these schools know the family didn’t just complete FAFSA so they could take the federal student loan, which everyone qualifies for? Many families don’t realize they can file FAFSA anytime until the June deadline to still get the loan, rather they see the FAFSA deadline on the college’s website (which is always earlier than the real deadline) and go by that.
side eye to the colleges that behave this way
Key sentence…call and verify directly with the college(s). This policy is for institutional aid, not federally funded grants or loans. The institutional aid restriction most definitely applies to international students..and is so at a small number of colleges for domestic students. So…check.
This part seems easy to check, the other half of my post (whether the school will penalize you for applying for financial aid if you don’t currently need it) seems less easy to check or feel confident you’ll get a truthful answer. And, I’d be nervous that asking non-anonymously could have implications. And, while I don’t doubt you’re right that it is only a small number of colleges that have these issues for domestic students, the fact that 2 of the 5 I looked at of my kid’s current short list have such policies, is concerning.
Would you be willing to share the names of these colleges? This might be helpful to others.
At one point, Skidmore would not grant institutional need based aid for a year or two if one didn’t apply as an incoming freshman. I don’t know if that is still their policy…or not.
I did, five posts up in the post you quoted from earlier. Bryn Mawr and Pitzer.
Thank you. I can’t seem to find this statement on the Pitzer site. I must be reading it incorrectly. Can you please just direct me to that part?
Thank you!
What I’m reading is that you need to apply as an incoming freshman, not that you have to be eligible or receive institutional aid.
Is there any fine print in some of these strict policies for unexpected situations (i.e. job loss of a parent, etc.) requiring an unexpected aid application in subsequent years?
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘eligible’.
One has to apply for aid at pitzer by filing both FAFSA and CSS when they apply for first year admission. If they don’t, they can’t apply for institutional aid for two years (I’m not sure that includes the first year or not). I don’t think it matters whether one qualified for institutional aid in the first year or not , they would be barred from applying for/receiving institutional aid for two years, even if their circumstances change. As always, I would confirm that with the school, rather than infer/assume things based on the poor/incomplete wording on their website.
Schools want to prevent families from applying as a full pay for one year to increase their chances of admission at these need aware schools, but then in subsequent years apply for aid. Whether or not the school with this type of policy would consider special circumstances after year 1 will vary by school.
Bottom line: if one wants to preserve the ability to apply for/receive institutional aid at a need aware school that has a requirement to apply for FA as an incoming first year, then one should do that.
That is how I read it as well. And, I am the OP, and that was the advice I understood folks to be giving me initially in this thread. And that there is no harm in applying, even if you are not eligible. But, now, I’m hearing from a very reliable college podcast, that some schools actually ding your kid’s chances and may reject your kid if they are clearly full pay, but apply for aid in order to protect yield. That is concerning.
I know the standard answer here is “ask the school directly.” But I feel concerned about calling up (or writing to a school) to say, “Hey, if someone knows they are full pay now, but wants to apply for financial aid to preserve the ability to do so in the future in case of job loss or some other major change in circumstances, will you factor the fact that they applied but are not eligible into admissions decisions? I’ve heard from reliable sources that some schools do that, because they’ve found that many of those families do not come if they don’t get aid. But, the sole reason I am asking this question is because your site says if one doesn’t apply for aid when seeking admission, they can’t get institutional aid for the next 2/4 years. Will the simple act of applying for aid, if not currently eligible hurt a kid’s chances of admissions at your need aware school?”
First, I worry that if not done anonymously in some way, it will be noted in some way that will hurt my kid’s chances that I asked, because now they have me as an “iffy” full pay family.
Second, I worry that no school will tell a rando (especially an anonymous one) that they hold it against people if they apply for aid but are not eligible even where they have a must apply in the first year policy. How can I trust a “we don’t do that” answer?
So, I fear that we’ll have to make a less informed decision with these schools. Do we apply for aid we don’t currently need and potentially hurt admissions chances. Or, do we not apply for aid and hope me and my wife don’t lose income again because of the crazy uncertainty the current administration is wreaking on our careers (or for other less likely reasons).
What I mean is…they can be high enough income and/or assets that they would not qualify for need based institutional financial aid…
They need to apply anyway to be eligible to apply in subsequent years.
We have no idea if this is accurate information and if it is, how common this situation is. You might contact Peg Keogh and directly ask her. And if she doesn’t give up the names of the schools, well…
I’m also not sure how high a pedestal I would put the ‘your college bound podcast.’ I am always skeptical when I look at college counselors who are unaffiliated with any professional organizations. I didn’t do a deep dive into all the people affiliated with the firm that runs that podcast, but it doesn’t look like they are members of NACAC, IECA, HECA, etc. That concerns me.
I agree with you that if you call a school that you suspect might ding a full pay student for applying for aid, they aren’t going to tell you that when you call financial aid. I wouldn’t bother.
I have no idea if any schools do this, but the set of schools that might and their overlap with need aware and must initially apply for aid schools has to be a very small list.
I would stop analyzing thinking about this. It’s out of your control, focus on the things you can control.
Fair to say we don’t know if the information is totally trustworthy, that is always true, including of course anything we read on this site from any of us. That said, I have considerably less skepticism of the podcast staff than you do. First, the main host’s (Mark Strucker)bio says in it that he is a member of HECA, SACAC, and NACAC. Moreover, I’ve heard him and others on the podcast talk about how parents should be wary of college counselors who are not members of such associations that have certain ethical requirements. So, if that is your primary reason for deep skeptism of their statements, Mark is a member (didn’t dive in to see about all hosts).
Second, the team who are regular hosts of the podcast include current member of the Colorado College admissions team, the current director of admissions at Milton Academy, and the dean of admissions and financial aid at Connecticut College among others. The hosts collectively have broad and varied experience and informed perspectives on college admissions that I find few other places.
Third, both Mark and Peg said they’ve had college admissions counselors tell them this directly. I find it unlikely that they both said they’ve heard this directly from school reps and actually didn’t.
All of that said, I think you are likely right that it is a tiny number of schools that both have the policy of you must apply for financial aid when applying for admission and will ding a full pay family for applying. But, I would like to know if the schools my daughter is applying to are part of that tiny group since at least a couple schools on her short list definitively fall into the first category.
I like your idea of asking Peg and Mark directly, which schools told them this. I am going to do that!