<p>“Duke, Penn, WashU and UCSF Medicine have reputations that are a notch higher than the other schools you listed according to the Peer Assessment ratings done by Residency Directors and other medical schools. I know you love Peer Assessment so you can’t ignore this metric in the field of Medicine.”</p>
<p>I agree. Peer assessment and Residency Directors ratings matter a great deal. I am not sure, however, how Duke, Penn or WUSTL separate themselves from Michigan or Stanford Medical schools according to Medical experts:</p>
<p>USCF: PA 4.7, RD 4.6 = 4.65 average
WUSTL: PA 4.6, RD 4.6 = 4.60 average
Stanford: PA 4.6, RD 4.5 = 4.55 average
Duke: PA 4.5, RD 4.5 = 4.50 average
Michigan: PA 4.3, RD 4.6 = 4.45 average
Penn: PA 4.4, RD 4.5 = 4.45 average
Columbia: PA 4.3, RD 4.4 = 4.35 average
UDub: PA 4.3, RD 4.3 = 4.30 average
Yale: P 4.3. RD 4.3 = 4.30 average</p>
<p>There is no reputational difference between those 9 elite Medical programs.</p>
<p>And why are you willing to accept the Medical school reputational ratings, but not Law school reputational ratings. It certainly looks like you are cherry picking. According to LAw schools PA, Judges and Lawyers and Big Law, Michigan Law’s reputation is tied in fourth place with Chicago and Columbia. That is why the WSJ actually included Michigan Law among the five programs in its survey back in 2003. If you are so willing to accept medical school reputational ratings, you have to accept Law school reputational ratings. Just because you do not agree with the majority of leading legal scholars does not make it so. Your irrational hatred for Michigan always seems to get the best of you.</p>
<p>“After all, law school is a professional program so placement in the legal field should be the most important criteria to look at when assessing the quality of a law school.”</p>
<p>Absolutely. But you are assuming that all law students have a similar ambition. They do not. Clearly, a smaller percentage of Michigan and Yale law school students wish to pursue careers in Big Law. Yale law graduates famously pursue clerkmanships while Michigan has a large percentage seeking positions in academe and in private practices in Michigan. What you need to look at is their reputation among Big Law firms (Yale #1 and Michigan #4) and the placement rates of graduates from those law schools schools actually seeking positions in Big Law firms. </p>
<p>I don’t see how faculty strength even matters."</p>
<p>I hope you are joking goldenboy. I won’t say more on this point, because if truly think the strength of the faculty does not matter, we will not be able to find a common ground. </p>
<p>“There is not a single professional program on Planet Earth where MIT and Caltech alums are as well represented in absolute terms or in relative terms as say Duke grads. You’ve seen all the lists yourself for programs that report undergraduate representation: UVA Law, Yale Law, Harvard Law, Chicago Law, Michigan Law, Wash U Medicine, Vanderbilt Medicine, Hopkins Medicine, all M7 MBA programs, etc.”</p>
<p>Engineering is a major professional field. Caltech and MIT destroy Duke where Engineering is concerned. It is not even close. And that’s the point many posters on CC, in this thread and myself have been making. Not all universities attract students interested in Law, Medical and MBA programs. Caltech and MIT attract students who are predominantly interested in pursuing graduate studies in Engineering, CS, Biology, Chemistry, Earth Sciences, Economics, Mathematics and Physics. If you include those programs, Caltech and MIT will likely join HYPS as the top feeders into elite graduate programs in relative terms (Caltech is so small, it probably won’t crack the top 10 in absolute terms). </p>
<p>Again, your insisting on ignoring Engineering as a professional program seems a lot like cherry picking. Engineering graduate students have similar job offers, starting salaries and career paths as students enrolled in comparable MBA or Law programs. Engineering is as lucrative and important a profession as any, especially when it goes beyond the technical and into the strategy and management positions, which is what graduates from top Engineering programs end up doing. </p>
<p>“I’ve also never seen Michigan outperform Duke in representation in any professional program besides Michigan Law and Chicago Law”</p>
<p>Where Michigan will outpace Duke is in its placement of students in its own graduate programs. Michigan Law, Medicine and Ross each enrol ± 50 Michigan graduates annually Duke graduate professional programs are unlikely to enrol more than 15-20 Duke graduates per program. It is very difficult for Duke to bridge the gap of 30+ matriculants per program. Sure Duke may place as many alums at non-Michigan/non-Duke graduate programs as Michigan. In some instances, Duke will place slightly more and in other instances, Michigan will place slightly more. Overall, both will place roughly the same number in top graduate programs…until you factor in Michigan graduate programs. Once you do, Michigan will post bigger numbers than Duke. </p>
<p>“I think a more comprehensive study will still show Duke as either #5, #6, or #7 trailing just HYPS and possibly an Ivy or two.”</p>
<p>In relative terms, I think Duke would still be among the top 10, but not among the top 6. I genuinely believe that HYPSM and Caltech will blow the competition out of the water. Remember, Caltech was #17 in the WSJ survey, and that did not include Engineering or science PhD programs. If you include those programs, Caltech will leap forward! Once you get past those 6, the difference in relative terms between #7 and #20 will be insignificant if you include Engineering and other major graduate programs.</p>
<p>“This is not surprising however since 18 year olds and most adults prefer the top private schools over the top public schools for undergraduate education.”</p>
<p>18 year olds are, admittedly, very concerned with rankings. Not all of them mind you, but many of them are. I personally chose Michigan over a couple of schools that were ranked ahead of it. Many students I knew at Michigan also made similar decisions. And who cares about “adults”? 70% of adults have no college education and 70% of adults that do have degrees from third rate universities. Among the intellectual elite, top publics like Cal, Michigan and UVa have very strong reputations for undergraduate education…certainly on par with many elite private universities.</p>