Preparing to Apply - Information for H.S. Juniors and Seniors

College Majors Musical Theater Majors
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<p>Mainstage…I totally agree that many kids decide on a school for ED and that it is their dream school without having visited or even explored any others. Believe me, I know…I can’t tell you how many families contact me with a child who ONLY wants to attend NYU/Tisch. Speaking as a parent, as much as my child wanted this school from a young age…at the time she really only knew of that school and I would never let my kid apply ED anywhere without having compared the school to others and have visited some others. My kid now attends NYU/Tisch but I am so glad that she arrived at that decision knowing what else was out there AND along the way, she discovered many other fine programs she could be happy at which is SO important given the odds of admissions and I find too many kids with a “X school or bust” kind of thinking when there definitely is more than one school where you can be happy and flourish. These kids just have not explored what else there is. ED is a good option but I would personally not let my kid do it until she had explored other schools (and visited a few) and then if she was ready to commit to one, I would have surely let her apply ED (she almost did but then decided not to do ED to Tisch). I’m glad she did the whole college exploration and arrived back at this same school rather than only looked at one school. Just to be clear, I am NOT against ED at all, but would be if the student had not looked into any other schools and had not visited any other schools before arriving at the decision to apply ED. </p>

<p>Also, I fear for those who only want one school in a situation where the admit rates are so very low that it can be a set up for great disappointment. Best to fall in love with many schools, even if you have favorites. I will admit that in Dec. of my D’s college admissions cycle, when several friends got into Tisch ED, she was knocking her head on the wall and saying, “if I had only done that, I could be done by now!” but came back to realizing why she had chosen to not do ED and to see what happened and explored many schools. </p>

<p>Also, I prefer to visit all options in junior year which is what I did with my oldest child. Howver, my MT kid decided midway through tenth grade that she wanted to graduate a year early which is nothing I had planned on and so her junior year was her application year and we had only seen one school in tenth grade (NYU)…let alone I was in the middle of return visits to my other D’s school as it was her senior year and she was deciding among her acceptances. We did get to see three more schools in early fall of junior year before any auditions were done. My D then could have chosen ED as she had seen a total of four schools and that would have been fine by me. We purposely planned these few visits early in junior year in case she wanted to do ED, since we had only seen one school in tenth grade. She went with RD and then we did the 8 campus auditions, four of which were first visits since we could not see them all in tenth grade (I thought we were gonna do that in junior year but who knew she’d be graduating in junior year?? :slight_smile: ) In any case, my D’s process was a little different as she was applying as a junior in HS to college and was actually still 15 when making this decision.</p>

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<p>MOAP…in my case, since my D goes to school in Manhattan, it is indeed a cool place to visit. The negative aspect is that it is very expensive every time we go there to see all her performances and to move her in and out of living spaces.</p>

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<p>soozie, it would be my dream to own an apartment in Manhattan, and make it available for rent (by the day, week, or month) for CC parents to utilize…at a reasonable cost, of course! Wouldn’t that be great?!</p>

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<p>I’m not an urban person but I absolutely love NYC. It’s a nice-place-to-visit-wouldn’t-want-to-live-there kind of love but love it nonetheless. I imagine it would be great for 4 yrs of college. I’m still getting over the hotel room service bill for 1 order of french toast, 2 glasses of OJ and a glass of cranberry juice - total $42 in NYC. (meals weren’t included in my expense total). </p>

<p>I agree 100% with Soozie on ED advice. As I have posted before and will repeat for the new readers and next year’s group - what had been for over a year one of my D’s top choices, dropped off the list totally after visiting the campus. Another near the bottom rose after a visit. And one that was lukewarm is her new school which she fell madly in love with. So I can’t agree more on the value of visiting. One of the schools on your list could be a hidden diamond you’re not aware of.</p>

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<p>My turn (?)- :slight_smile:
When my D was (constantly) asked which was her “top choice” school, she would reply “my top choice school is the school who chooses me.”
There was no such top lst for her as she definitely wanted to have the options, and then research and decide for her own personal reasons. I, however, teasingly would ask why couldn’t she have taken the ED route as life would have been so much simpler (she would roll her eyes & laugh).:slight_smile: She did not fall in love with any school beforehand not even at two pre-colleges, and so hence all the auditions. I’m still grateful for our time together on these trips (even though dad came with us twice - LOL).</p>

<p>Soozievt -I understand that as a M/T College Counselor you want to send important messages so that everyone is educated as far as what should be done i.e. Jr. yr. visits, pre-visits etc. etc., and you do it so well. :-)</p>

<p>Soozievt & MOAP…I’m sure we would all visit our children in Timbuck2,
but it’s nice to have other options. ;-)</p>

<p>MOAP - We cross posted - I TOTALLY agree that you may not know of your gem, your “fit” into a certain
school without these experiences. I know this lst hand.</p>

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<p>Mainstage, I love your D’s answer that her top school is the one that chooses her. One thing I have been happy about with my own two kids when they applied to college (and when one has recently also applied to grad schools) is that they did not have a ONE single favorite. They had ‘clumps’ of “ones I like the best”, “ones I really like” and so forth. There was no one single “must have” and therefore, there were no great disappointments. I do worry about kids who have a single “must have” favorite. It is natural to have preferred schools but it is important to like every school on your list and also ideal to have a few favorites rather than a must have single “dream” school. My kids had a couple favorites and liked every school on their list. They were lucky to get into and attend one of their favorites but all was not riding on one particular school for them. Just something for those who haven’t been through it yet to think about. Having a “dream school” can be a set up for disappointment.</p>

<p>Btw, I did all the college visits with my two girls and my husband did not go on them (I have the luxury of more flexibility than he has) and it was a nice mother/daughter time and also a chance to have one on one time with a child without the other children. Also, looking at colleges can be very exciting as it is planning for the future and a big adventure. My oldest child became very interested in attending my alma mater (I did not care whether she applied or not) and it was really fun to go back there with her and look at it through her eyes (I would have chosen it all over again if I were applying today) and she seriously considered attending after she was admitted. Also, it was fun to visit the school she actually chose instead because my brother had gone to that university and I hadn’t been back since my HS days and it is funny how things all turn out. Also, come to think of it, my mom had gone to NYU for a couple of years (she grew up in NYC) and so that is another funny coincidence.</p>

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<p>I so agree with EVERYTHING Soozievt, MOAP, and Mainstage say, from ED to “fit” to the worthy investment. I also made all the trips with my D last(2007) cycle, as my H did the duty with my son to CA and the East Coast- we reside in the Midwest. He tried to combine those trips with business- depositions- to reduce air and hotel fares!!! The best thing my D and I did was to visit 9 schools (4 in NYC) in a week( whew!!!) right before her junior year as her school started after Labor Day… She flew to meet me after I settled my son and we did a Route 95 road trip and took a detour back to the Midwest to check out 2 schools along the way. Made appoointments and met with all the heads that were available, or other people in the MT office. Most of the schools had started, or at least there were kids on campus, which gave us a good idea. This helped reformulate her list.. Then during spring break of her junior year we flew to Chicago for some professional auditions and did the upper Midwest tour of 4 more schools.. When it came time to applying she ended up going to 6 campuses (only one was a road trip) and did Chicago Unifieds for 4 more. We also opted for the Palmer House upper floors- maybe called the Gold Tower
(BTW, I made my reservation there in May of her junior year- right about now- even though there was no “block” discount for Unifieds yet, so I insiated they make a note that I was part of that group so I could, and did, later get that price. Had them send me a written confirmation as well. I think it ended up 2 years ago being $179 vs the $ 159 rate for other floors- well worth it and less than normal rate ).
After acceptances were in hand, D did visit one BA school she was very seriously considering, and then she made her decision. For those of you who are not yet going to be seniors, try to make visits junior year, especially if you think their is a possibility of ED. And for you seniors, it is not too late.. GO this summer and check out what you can, and you will have a better feel for where to audition- Unifieds or campus or both ( my personal fav, spread it out, illness, weather, etc). It is not too early to even make hotel reservations and some plane tickets, especially if you can use Southwest since there is no penalty for canceling and you can re-bank the $ to use in the next calendar year. I did this, even if I was not sure the school would accomodate our preferred audition date.. To assure this, my D got all her apps out before school started, or at least ready, and applied for dates early.. The schools ususally accomodate, and a phone call early if they don’t can often work to your benefit. It helped me to get airline tickets early-cheaper too- bc then I didn’t feel the pinch so much of putting out all that $ every time we went somewehre. Organization is key for this process. Good luck!!</p>

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<p>As has been observed, having your “heart set” on a particular school can often lead to keen disappointment. It’s better to have a list of schools, any one of which you would be happy to attend.</p>

<p>In addition, the notion of your “top school” is a very fluid concept. When we started looking at schools in the spring of my D’s Junior year, there was a particular school on the “top” of her list. We visited it - and my D scratched it off her list entirely! Just was not a good fit. My D auditioned at a particular school in December of her senior year and was accepted 2 weeks later. At the time, the school was not at the “top” of her list because it was too close to home and she wanted to “get away and see the world”. As she continued through the audition process, the schools on her list were constantly reshuffled as she had the opportunity to visit and experience them. Schools near the top moved towards the bottom. Others dropped off her radar as schools she would want to attend even if accepted. And at the end, when all of her acceptances were in and it was time to think seriously about decisions, my D came to the realization that “getting away from home to see the world” wasn’t nearly as important as she thought. She concluded that that very first school from back in December was just so ideal for her that it popped right up to the “top” of her list and was the school she ended up going to!</p>

<p>Now, if we had only had the clarity of a “crystal ball” back in December… (actually, I did, but what did I know, I was just the Dad :wink: ).</p>

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<p>Michael - it was the same way here - funny how we know our kids. It just looked like her and had everything I knew she was dreaming of but she wasn’t seeing it - till she got there. But she humored me - after all if Mom was willing to pay the application fee, flight, hotel, etc - why not. Now she says when she thinks she might not have applied there at all she could just “die”. I’m a hero and if I had $100 for everytime she has thanked me, I could probably pay for the 1st year’s tuition.</p>

<p>So to the kids out there - if your parents feel some strange instinct about a school - you might want to take a double take.</p>

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<p>bumping this up.</p>

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<p>No one will tell you this until it is too late:
Everyone prepares for “acceptance”–but in very competitive programs and instruments, preparing a backup plan for being “waitlisted” or “rejected” should be done WHILE preparing for admission.</p>

<p>Okay–what’s a good backup plan for a high school senior in the event of not being “accepted”? Instead of hitting the panic button and enrolling in a safety school, consider taking a “gap year.”</p>

<p>A “gap year” means enrolling as a part time college student and continuing private study to address issues encountered in the audition. </p>

<p>You might also enroll in a performance prep program or College Audition Prep program (like at Indiana University, Bloomingtion). During the gap year, you can check your progress with another sample lesson with the faculty member who you will reaudition for. In a few cases, you may be able to arrange studying with that faculty member. </p>

<p>Now here’s the sweet part: when you reaudition, you may still be considered a freshman applicant–with a potential 4 (woodwind) admission slots. Compare this to a transfer student, for whom there may be only one slot. If you get accepted at your top choices, you can transfer academic credits taken part time. If you still just get accepted at a safety school, you can take your credits with you then take a lighter year academically tp devote more time to practice for reauditioning as a transfer student. </p>

<p>This is not quite a win-win strategy, but it sure beats the labor and long odds of trying to transfer from a safety school. Some teachers have a tradition of rarely taking transfers.</p>

<p>Important: Check with the schools about their gap year policy. Eastman, for example, will accept a gap year. But don’t take my word for it–ask the question while initially applying to schools and you’ll be doubly prepared to succeed!</p>

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<p>Then again, your safety school should be a school you would be happy to attend. Pick your safeties well.</p>

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<p>For those of you who are compiling your lists of schools at which to apply/auditiion, please take the time to go to the individual Univ. of Arizona forum and read the threads on the 2008 cuts and also the Best Practices. Please make sure you are fully informed about what this school does to its students. In yet another, in my opinion, appalling situation, they have this year cut 11 from the sophomore class, and the freshman class has had 3 MT kids cut and 4 acting majors cut, two acting majors who have chosen to leave as well. </p>

<p>I know that we have discussed this so many times here on CC but I want to be sure that those who will be auditioning this year are truly informed about how this policy actually impacts students, and their families.</p>

1 Like
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<p>The posts on UA piqued my interest so I went to the UA MT webpage. What follows below is a copy of the sections relevant to retention of students. What is clear is that there are 2 exposures to being cut that a student must survive: end of freshman year and end of sophomore year. What is also interesting is that to be retained, a student must demonstrate the “potential” to be professionally successful in their reauditions. That to me not seems to be the most elusive and unpredictable of “criteria” for retention, but I think also draws into question whether the program is more interested in its “educational” mission or in garnering accolades for itself based on the success of its graduates. While some students and parents may not object to this approach and “system”, it seems to me that the most critical issue is whether students find out they are cut in time to make other plans to continue their education elsewhere without interruption. It’s not enough to say that a student may be given “hints” during the year; that puts a student in a potential no win situation of deciding whether to devote their time and energy to finding and auditioning at another school or attempting to commit themselves to improving their standing at UA’s program. There is also the financial impact to consider. After 2 years of tuition invested, how viable financially is it to move to another BFA program. </p>

<p>"Continuation Requirements</p>

<p>For probationary admission to the sophomore level, all Musical Theatre Majors must:</p>

<p>Meet all University of Arizona academic standards for continuing status.
Successfully Audition and Interview with the Acting/Musical Theatre Division Faculty. (Audition Assessment Criteria)
Complete the Theatre Arts and Musical Theatre Core Curriculum:
MUSICAL THEATRE: T AR 113, 118, 149, 151, 205, MUS 100, MUS 101, MUSI 182V (4 units) and two semesters of dance.
Maintain a GPA of 3.0 in major course work.
Have completed a minimum of 9 units of General Education/Foundations course work.
For final admission to upper division coursework and for full membership in the Arizona Repertory Theatre (ART) Company, all Musical Theatre Majors must:</p>

<p>Meet all University of Arizona academic standards for continuing status.
Successfully Audition and Interview with the Acting/Musical Theatre Division Faculty. (Audition Assessment Criteria)
Maintain a GPA of 3.0 in major course work.
Have completed a minimum of 18 units of General Education/Foundations course work.
Audition Assessment Criteria</p>

<p>Assessment of the audition is based on the following criteria:</p>

<p>Talent: The innate ability to act, to perform, to have the ability to be believed by others in a variety of imaginary circumstances and characters. Talent per se cannot be taught. It is a gift. However, the craft of acting can be taught. Talent can be developed and trained through the acquisition of technique.</p>

<p>Professional Potential: The potential for eventual success in the profession of acting or musical theatre. In order to be admitted and advanced in our program, the candidate must have demonstrated talent and professional potential.</p>

<p>Trainability: The ability of the actor to respond to and develop with training. Students who have demonstrated talent and professional potential but who do not, cannot, or will not respond to the training will not be advanced."</p>

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<p>I don’t see how the policy as stated indicates that “garnering accolades” is the program’s goal. This policy is no different from those in many other fields. I had to go through an undergraduate portfolio review to advance into a professional architecture program. Very subjective, as is MT. I also had a review of my grades & teacher recommendations before advancing in an undergraduate nursing program. I’m sure there are many other examples of two tier assessment systems required for completion of a bachelors degree.</p>

<p>The degree should mean something. If students who have not developed and grown are given degrees simply because they “hung in there” for four years, the value of the degree is weakened for all past & future graduates. I certainly hope there is some type of warning or progress report system in place so no kid is blindsided. Were these cut students given prior warnings that their development wasn’t satisfactory?</p>

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<p>Stickershock, consider this. The criteria for retention states that a student must “maintain a GPA of 3.0 in major course work” in order to continue in the program. Let’s say I’m a student who maintained A’s and B’s in all my MT courses. In my acting classes, I learned and applied technique, performed monolgues, performed scenes with partners, responded to adjustments and had a strong work ethic. In voice classes, I again learned and applied technique, my vocal range grew, I expanded the genre of songs I performed, I demonstrated growth in learning to act the song, I performed regularly in class. In my dance and music classes, same deal. And all of this I did well enough to garner A’s and B’s in all of my performance classes, based on day in and day out class performance and performance on my “finals”, all of which were performance based presentations graded and reviewed by my professors. (Which is how performance classes in BFA MT programs are graded - some even require juries in front of multiple professors.) </p>

<p>Then comes my sophomore reaudition and I am bounced out because I somehow don’t meet the criteria of “professional potential”, what ever that means. I have consistently demonstrated “talent” and “trainability” in all my performance classes and my grades show it. I haven’t simply “hung in there” and marginally cruised through on “cruise control”. But now I’m out because I don’t have “professional potential”. What does that tell you? Sound far fetched? It isn’t. Look at the number of cuts that have occurred over the last couple of years. Doesn’t that tell you something about what is really going on there?</p>

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<p>I’ll repeat my original question: Were these cut students given prior warnings that their development wasn’t satisfactory?</p>

<p>If they were not, and in fact earning As & Bs in performance classes, then the cut system is not being implemented fairly. Obviously anyone that the faculty feels is lacking professional potential should be given ample time to either improve or look for alternative schools.</p>

<p>I have no problem with a school using cuts, provided this is a clearly understood policy and the students in danger of being cut are not sucker punched with the news.</p>

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<p>StickerShock, I would recommend that you read the MANY discussions about what has gone on at Univ. of Arizona for many years. Both students and parents have posted their experiences here on CC. It’s unlikely that so many of us who have been around for a while would have the reaction we do to UA if they were handling the cuts as you describe, in a fair manner with advance warning of not meeting the requirements of the program.</p>

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<p>From what has been posted Sticker, they were not given notice in time to audition for the next year. Most of the credits don’t transfer leaving them having wasted 1 or 2 years of their life and starting over. If has been posted of 21 sophomores, 11 are cut - something is seriously wrong with UA - in selecting students, training students - blame it on anything you want - but there is a huge red flag there. Especially since you read time and again that these “dumped” students go on to other top programs and succeed.</p>

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<p>One more thing to consider. The COST of visiting schools, applying to schools, and auditioning at schools is quite high. There is no question that it is an important investment. Even though we planned ahead for the expense, we were shocked when we added up everything at the end. The airfare, the hotels in NYC and Chicago, the meals, the missed work. . .Anyway, we could have taken a Mediterranean Cruise for the family! Many people I’ve talked to have been surprised by this cost–don’t be; save now.</p>